But if you’re not vegan, you’re probably thinking, “wait, do vegans not eat honey either? Holy shit! I knew they were fuckin crazy!”
We set the record straight in this video:
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I agree guys! Thanks for bringing this up. It does make folks feel that much more removed from the possibility of ever becoming vegan, which is very harmful to our case. Also, relative to the scale of what we are trying to tackle with the meat and dairy industry, it is not really relevant to even bring up. Most of the time it comes off as a person being “holier than thou” and that is detrimental to any argument.
……….it’s “holier than thou” to stick to a set of principles? So, I am “holier than thou” for being non-sexist, non-racist and non-heterosexist? How do you figure that, or are you racist sometimes so as not to “make folks feel removed from the possibility of ever becoming” non-racist?
Why are you so pissed, have you had your fiber today?
Actually, asking legitimate and intelligent questions doesn’t make me “pissed”, but you do you.
T. L. D. R.
See those three fingers of the same hand you’re using to point to others’ failings? Yeah, those three. They’re pointing back at you, gruber.
Good analogy. The non vegans will hate you for it.😉
So instead of educating the world and going vegan through that way you’d like us to throw the bees under the bus just to make going vegan easier for others?? How the fuck is that vegan? What if we decided that vegan bros were too much for non vegans and your hurting the whole veganism movement. What if we decide you should die just like the bees just to make others feel better. I have lost all faith and respect for you two!!
It’s not like vegans are choosing to eat honey for the sake of making more people vegan, its just about keeping quiet when you’re around people who AREN’T vegan, so that you don’t turn them off. Do your research at home so you don’t have to ask “Is there honey in this?” when you’re out in public.
I don’t completely agree. You should ask “is there honey in this” if you are unsure. For example- today I went to Whole Body and asked for something natural to prevent allergies from getting to me. Guy at counter “Bee pollen bla bla bla”. I made “the face”– he claps his hands in the most feminine way summoning “The Vegan Employee” then I was praised for my dedication that he someday hoped to achieve. Again- I don’t quite agree with Brendon either- I mean… “throwing bees under the bus”– I hope that’s sarcasm. Why? B/c they just said they don’t consume honey and they think it’s morally wrong… HOWEVER- that doesn’t mean they throw a hissy fit in public when people eat honey or go 95% Vegan .. just still eat honey.. maybe wear silk.. People don’t want to associate with the hissy fits. HOWEVER- providing educational information when inquiring minds ask.. beneficial ! Your leading by humble example– beneficial !
There’s no such thing as 95% vegan. That sounds just as ridiculous as saying 95% anti-racist. Veganism is not a broad term; there is no in between. You either are or you aren’t. “maybe wear silk.”? I think you may be confusing vegan with vegetarian. I highly suggest educating yourself on veganism.
Wait, is there really such a thing as 100% vegan?.. that is a mythical achievement we all would be striving for, achieving it when we die I suppose.
Yep. Where does my responsibility end? I have non-vegan kids. I guess I sort of failed. When I die, I achieved 0% veganism.
Well are they vegetarian?
Only a select few make it to level 5 vegan.
There’s no such thing as 95% vegan. That sounds just as ridiculous as saying 95% anti-racist. Veganism is not a broad term; there is no in between. You either are or you aren’t. “maybe wear silk.”? I think you may be confusing vegan with vegetarian. I highly suggest educating yourself on the lifestyle of veganism.
So are you saying 0% vegan and 95% vegan is the same thing?
Yes, because both are non-vegan.
I’m certain you aren’t 100% vegan.
It’s an idiot, VB. Of course, that’s what it was claiming. And hoping grubers would buy into that line of (non) thinking. LOL
Great discussion, thanks!
Some of these ppl r just trying way too hard not to allow people to be in their special club known as “vegan movement”….
They feel better about themselves knowing their diet is 100 percent perfect at all times free of animal product.
They probably go “freeganing” too. Hah
Why do all these people who do not agree with the philosophy of veganism, insist on calling themselves vegan? Is it a fashionable fad? It sure isn’t a club! Why not simply say you are trying out a plant based diet? That is a helpful change. It just isn’t veganism. Why pretend to accept a philosophy that you have not truly adopted?
I also think it’s probably because they’re trying to transition to the diet. Veganism is a philosophy, and I subscribe to many of the parts of veganism, though I myself am not vegan. I think it can also help get the idea of veganism as an extremist thing and make it more normalized. I meet lots of people who tell me they’re currently vegetarian and are transitioning to a vegan lifestyle.
But yeah, there are totally people who are like “yeah lol I’m so vegan. Let me drink my starbucks soy frap. It’s soy because I don’t want to hurt cows. BTW can I get extra whip cream?” That is so irritating to me because they literally are not doing it for the animals at, they’re just doing it for the title.
Those who are responsible for fewer animsl deaths cause fewer animal deaths.
Vegans don’t use animals.
I would think allowing somebody to move closer and closer to the movement is better than having somebody say “okay, just F’it then” Allow for the changes. Every change is better than none.
Yes, every decision we make to avoid using animals helps animals.
But, why insist on calling it veganism when it isn’t?
I have been vegan for around 5+ years. My immediate family has transitioned to being mostly vegan. Yes, I said “mostly.” I think it is great that people are making progress, and I’m not about to alienate the people who are transitioning at a different speed than I did. A hateful liberationist once went on a tirade about me saying my family was “mostly” vegan, and I shudder to think of how off-putting someone with that judgmental attitude affects the perception of vegans in general. With people like that, it isn’t about the animals, and choosing the most effective PR strategy to help them – it’s about that person and their own ego, personal purity, and anger. An integral part of animal advocacy is showing compassion to everyone, and presenting the vegan lifestyle as something people would want to be part of. Nobody is going to sign up to be nit-picked and made to feel like their efforts are meaningless.
Well said sister! I like the way you think! I am also mostly vegan. I believe this is enough. Sometimes it is hard when you go out to a party or just anywhere and I have to be able to have something. Being almost vegan just maybe as much as some people can do for the rest of their lives. It still helps a lot more than it hurts. I went grocery shopping tonight and bought everything vegan except for some Mrs. Thinster’s cookie thins. I found them in Price Chopper; never heard of these before. I also bought a pint of non-dairy chocolate fudge almond ice cream.
Oh, it’s hard? How hard is it for the animals to be used and consumed?
Veganism is not about us.
That said, eating fewer animals helps.
Am I “mostly Jewish” because I don’t eat pork? No.
Your family is thinking about becoming vegan, and are now eating a “mostly plant based” diet. Veganism is NOT a diet. It is a philosophy and a justice movement.
Hey Dogly, I’ve seen your posts over and over again, and it seems like you’re just trying to start a fight with some of these people. If you want to go out of your way to make people wrong, fine. But realize the problem many are citing of extremist vegans turning people away from removing animals from their diet and animal products from their lives is the same problem you’re perpetuating with your very speech.
actually, it’s just the opposite. we can only ever be X% vegan, never 100%.
to be 100% vegan, you wouldn’t watch fireworks, travel in most automobiles or planes, listen to violin music, use non-apple laptops/desktops/tablets/smartphones, enter a house made of plywood, and a host of other things…
Read Watson’s definition of veganism. It was quoted above. Vegans do all that is possible and practicable to aboid the use of animals.
That is all. Avoiding honey is both possible and practicable.
Why should I have to walk on eggshells & restrict myself from informing the truth? By catering to the sensitivity of those who are doing harm, I’m also implicated in that harm. Why be an enabler to appeal to their perception? If they feel uncomfortable talking or inquiring about why Honey isn’t Vegan, it’s bc they lack the critical thinking skills to examine their choices. It’s our responsibility to expose & dismantle the status quo. Gently, of course, but not blindingly. It’s not the mention of honey that’s the issue. It’s the way it’s being presented. Someone can only think it extreme if we didn’t have the proper approach in the 1st place..
Often when speaking about Veganism, I don’t even mention honey outright. I speak about exploitation in general. I ask: 1) Does the food directly interfere, impose, exploit, & harm the life of the sentient being. 2) Does it indirectly impact biodiversity & the environment? 3) Can you live without it? If you answer YES to all 3, then that food isn’t Vegan. It doesn’t work with plants because 1) While they do get exploited, they can’t sense being harmed 2) While it does impact the environment, it’s at a smaller scale than other industries. Plus we have a synergistic relationship with plants of give and take, whereas with animals it’s a symbiotic relationship of just take. 3) With no other food source available, it’s unrealistic & difficult to exclude plants as a food source.
Anytime you live in hesitancy to speak freely bc of fear of backlash, is the day you should absolve from speaking at all. Those who give up liberty for a sense of security deserve neither. Especially if what you speak of is in support of those are helpless & voiceless. No one should have to manipulate someone into Veganism. If you’re going to do it, do it right. Be honest, help people understand. Give people more credit than you give them. You’d be surprised how the majority are willing to give benefit of the doubt & hear you out. Be patient, & speak to their intelligence, not their sensibilities..
I’ll make whatever inquiries I need to make about my food. Why does that concern you?
If you are going to be truly vegan then you will need to quit eating foods that have been produced using pollination from Honeybees.
Well, if the concept behind Veganism is to not eat anything that is produced by animals or animal labor then you would have to include all fruits and almost all vegetables. This is because they are all produced using honey bee pollination.
Now you might say that honey bees do this on their own naturally. But the truth is that Honey bees are not native to the Americas and were brought here by humans specifically for the pollination that they accomplish. The apple, almond, squash ect that you eat was made possible by pollination from honey bees that were trucked to the fields so that they could pollinate the field or orchard.
Even if you are eating stuff grown in your own yard, it is pollinated by bees that would not be here if a human had not brought it here. Bees travel up to 5 miles from their hives to collect pollen and nectar. This means that the bees in my hives in my back yard have had a hand in pollinating everything in a 5 mile radius from my house. that includes anyone’s, including any vegan’s, garden.
So this is the logic behind my above statement.
Anyway, I am grateful to the bees! And will not steal their honey!
Save the bees!!!
It is Beekeepers who are working hard to help save the bees. Many of the problems facing honeybee populations are disease and parasitic problems that frankly require our intervention. Most feral (wild) colonies of bees won’t last more than two seasons because of being overwhelmed by parasites and the diseases that they carry. Beekeepers are working to find answers to the problem and it is the management of colonies that has kept the populations as high as they are today.
What type of bees do you keep?
Do you harvest all their honey?
They die in the winter?
I keep several types of Honeybees.
No i only harvest a bit from each hive so that they have plenty for themselves to get through the winter.
No they don’t all die in the winter. Although it is during winter that I have the most colony losses.
Honeybees are far from the only pollinators, though — there are thousands of native North American bee species, not to mention other species of pollinating insects, hummingbirds, and non-animal pollen vectors like the wind. It’s not just the honeybees doing all that work!
There’s also a big difference between taking a by-product that the bee doesn’t even want (fruit), and taking the stuff it has produced for itself and wants to keep. If we could just nab the excess, unneeded honey in a non-invasive manner, that would be one thing, but that’s unfortunately not how it goes down (smoke is used to disorient the bees, some get injured or killed as the hive is opened and inspected, a few sting the beekeeper and die from their innards falling out, etc.)
The honeybees sure do want the flowers of the plants that would grow from the fruit, though they would like it much more if they were allowed to collect pollen from a wide variety of plants like they did before large-scale monocrop agriculture. We could, for example, replace our monocrop farms with permaculture farms, which would be better for bee health but is impossible/impracticable without the inclusion of larger animals in the farm design. Also, it is possible to produce honey without smoking or harming the bees, and many small-scale and backyard beekeepers do just that.
Pollinating is natural bee behavior. They do it for themselves and we also benefit. What is exploitive is stealing from them the fruits of their labor.
LOL… Brendan, go troll somewhere else where you might fool some people.
Someone like you sports an icon that reads “What would happen if EVERYONE CARED?” then proceeds to snarl elitist and vulgar pap. Walk your own talk before wagging your silly finger at the rest of us because your “caring” is neither caring about people skills nor caring about being effective in getting your message across by building a bridge of understanding to others who might disagree.
As Louis CK would observe, “You’re probably someone under 20 years old.”
LMAO… WTG, bro.
I eat honey from my hives and hives of other local beekeepers. All humanely raised and treated with utmost respect. We don’t disturb the hives for loads of honey, we just take small amounts when they’re packed full. Our bees love us and it’s amazing how they’re so docile every time we check our hives. As soon as they show any kind of stress we close the hive up and leave them alone for a week or so. Beekeeping is an amazing way to pollinate our fruit trees, herbs and other food plants/trees we have in our garden.
Did you not watch?
I agree, We only go into our hives for honey 1 time a year, and keep so much for the bees. e do not rob them blind ever. We also clean out any wax moth, and keep the ants off the hives. Our fruit and flowering trees help provide them with what they need, and in turn we help keep their natural predators from them. We also provide water always so they don’t have to go far to get it. It is a symbiotic relationship.
Officer, I’m not a thief. I stole some of his money, not ALL of his money!
Is it theft when your mom takes away your Playstation, Dogly? The honeybees aren’t out there existing independently in the wild, they’re dependents of the beekeeper and they have a mutually-beneficial relationship. The beekeeper provides them with all the needs of life and in return the beekeeper gets honey, beeswax, and pollinated crops. If the beekeeper were to decide to leave the honeybees alone and never open up the hives again, all of them would die; honeybees are not native to North America and cannot live independently here.
I love your stuff.
I’ve heard people use this very argument as to why vegans shouldn’t talk too much about the fact that dairy and eggs aren’t vegan. I’ve also heard of people who have no problem eating grass-fed beef but avoid honey because of Colony Collapse Disorder, social justice (human hunger/starvation due to loss of pollinators), and other environmental reasons. Truth is, different messages speak to different people. What might frustrate/anger one person could inspire/uplift another. Vegans are a diverse group with many different opinions, and that’s okay. What’s important is that we often share the same goal…helping people think more about what they eat, and hopefully inspire them to make better choices.
I like the way you ended this comment. Better health and less pain in this world is what we need. Being conscious of what we consume is what we need. It’s a long time before the whole world will be pure and 100% cruelty free.
LOL… a very, very long time.
I dont like the term cruelty free. Animals still die in harvesting crops ect and as living people we will inevitebly cause some form of cruelty in one way or another. The point is to minimise that cruelty as much as practicable
The fact the the rest of the world may change slowly, is not a reason for us, who know better, to drag OUR feet.
Vegans don’t USE animals. Honey uses animals. Honey is not appropriate for vegans.
I and some of my family have a couple of hives. We always leave enough honey for the bees and we still have plenty. We do not sell the honey. It is like our garden, we do not over produce to sell. We use and can everything for our personal use. So I understand why you would say Honey is not vegan, but I feel as though my bees and I work together to support each other. I care for them when whether and other problems make it hard on them and I get a wonderful bounty of nature.
Yo, honey is fine in a vegan diet as long as it doesn’t strip the hive if it’s primary function. It really is a morality standpoint when it comes to being vegan. I as a non vegan who was once one who had to go back to her protein ways since I have very low iron absorption by nature would not get what I need via supplements since I just didn’t absorb it naturally unles through a animal protein. (Sadly. I tried all plant based protein products I simply can’t absorb them) I think of myself in the way of a beloved animal companion. Cats and dogs cannot live a healthy plant based lifestyle. Look at how their teeth are formed, that Is a huge indication of how they should gain nutrients. They’re carnivores.
look up the product Restore for you gut. and dive into fulvic acid if you can
so you dont smoke them to rob the honey? none get accidently squashed when getting the honey, the bees just welcome you to take it? you dont requeen? I am now vegan but previously had beehives fir own use so i know what happens. try rice syrup its a good sub for honey if you must have something sweet
what bullshit Loretta: Haven’t YOU accidentally squashed some ants, beetles, bugs whilst walking? Never swatted a fly, mosquito, wasp etc?
Yes I got sting, I hope he died. I’m vegan and this is the first I heard of this. This is going to far.
Sure we accidentally squash bugs, but we aren’t doing it while trying to farm them and take the fruits of their labors.
Loretta , you should stop travelling entirely because by travelling you’re killing thousands of poor mosquitos , be it with a car, a train or a plane . Don’t go out in the streets either, you might walk on an ant
No smoke and little sqishing. The bees requeen themselves all the time. How many bugs or animals die to get yoyr monoculture rice crop ? Or when fields are flooded for harvest?
Vegans are on a good cause but don’t see all the effects of latge svale ag to feed all of us. Yes more land for animal food but bees make plant production possible.They will produce surplus.
Look into the effects of beekeeping on wild bee species.
Learn about what you speak, small time beekeeping is symbioses. You are uneducated on Bees, yet think you know. People like you are why veganism is such a hard sell. You are bad for the movement. Thanks for making it hard to get people to see reason.
Excuse me Guy, but unfortunately it is people like YOU that push people away from becoming Vegan. You’re angry, irrational, and convinced that what you say and feel is 100% the correct thing for EVERYONE. I’m sorry but that’s incorrect. The person that you so harshly put down is doing his/her best to live in a way that works for them as well as taking care of the needs of their bees. This is one thing that has always angered me about certain vegan circles; you feel that it’s not ok to harm an animal (which it’s not), but it’s perfectly ok to harm a fellow human being. How about trying a little love, patience, and understanding for not just animals, but for ALL.
Humans are disgusting animals. Its fine to harm them,when their conscious actions call for it. Dogly states that honey is not appropriate for vegans, not just him/herself. I didnt say it was appropriate for vegans, i juts said its symbiosis and this person should learn the husbandry practices before forming an opinion. So yes, dogly is stating that beekeeping is bad for bees and is clueless to the reality. That is disgusting animal behavior. You think anything I say will make an uneducated fool like dogly decide not to be vegan? I show people that reasonable people are concerned about animal welfare as well. And again, humans have power, they dont need protecting from things mean people say. Their actions can dictate that they deserve things, unlike animals that are generally powerless in their situations. And i didnt put down dogly, i just stated facts. Dogly IS bad for the animal movement, turning people away from seeing the truth of modern big time farming practice because most people will tune out when you demand that small time beekeeping is bad for bees. if not for beekeeping, monsanto would have killed all the bees long ago.
And again, its not that eating honey is correct for evertyone….but I am 100% right that beekeeping, at a small level, IS symbiosis.
But can you at least see where I’m coming from in trying kindness instead of straight up anger? I’m sorry that you feel that all humans are disgusting. I for one take that as a personal attack on me, as would so many others. I am far from disgusting; quite the opposite actually. I’m an extremely loving and caring person that will go out of their way to try an keep a moth alive if I see it in my home; and there are millions just like me. And believe it or not, some of these wonderful people are not vegans. Maybe if we all try a little kindness and respect for each other, some small semblance of positiveness can come about. You can’t insult people and tell them that their bad for the movement and expect them to say “Oh, ok, well since you insulted me I’m going to make an effort to change my behavior”. Nope. Ever hear the expression “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar”? (No pun intended because this began with honey haha) It completely applies here.
We all need to just live the best way that we can, individually, and hope that in time others will follow suit. I can appreciate your passion hon, honestly. I really hope you have a great day Guy.
I love people that are 100% right.
A beneficial relationship for both species is the definition of symbiosis. Small farmers get honey and their crops pollinated and the bees fly free and get a safe place for their hive, and a watchful eye to help intercede when bad natural events happen. Medications for fugus that would normally kill them and more.
Sounds 100% to me.
Still 100% right. You’re the man.
right on jo…..
Guy, you are right.
Hey Guy, does this mean that its a good thing to have a bee hive in your back garden? I’m a new vegan and I didn’t even consider honey until the thought of taking something from an animal as my right was under question. I would be more than happy to never eat honey again, I know there are plenty of plant based options, but if owning a hive in my garden helps the bees and sharing their honey also helps them, then I would be ok with that. I know a lot of people who have small lifestyle blocks where they raise animals for their own dining pleasure and feel justified in living this way. My argument is that not all people can afford to live this way (as raising animals humanely takes a lot of land, etc) and by making this way of life a lifestyle and the norm, it will keep factory farming and inhumane practices going due to popularity. Living small is how I am trying to live. I know too that Veganism can have global and inhumane implications too. As long as there is a need/desire/requirement, there is the chance to exploit to turn a profit. I have no proof, but I wonder if the Paleo movement has caused a ripple effect where coconut products are concerned that may not be very good. I am growing my own garden and trying to only use what I produce or buy from other locals. So, getting back to it, would a home hive be acceptable? I suppose allowing the bees to keep their honey would be totally vegan? and maybe any overflow will be eaten up by the other animals of the world. I’ve probably answered my question. lol.
Ultimately, you must decide where your line is as what you are willing to be allowed inflicted. In places in China, farmers are having to pollinate by hand. Monsanto style GMO ed to survive soaking in roundup weed killer low labor farming is destroying wild honeybees. We need bees in quote unquote “captivity” in case they go extinct maybe we can get then going again if we can defeat Monsanto. Mind you bees fly freely to and from their hive. Look up a Kenyan style hive depending on were you live, you disturb the bees very little. If your gentle they won’t sting you. You dont even have to harvest honey, just offer them a nice managed home and they will send swarms out every spring to become “wild”. Get a hive, then decide if you wanna nibble a little comb as a treat later. There are also great ,around my local at least, small beekeepers that need support as well. These are the people that get called when a hive in a wall or something needs removed and would otherwise be destroyed.
Thanks Guy. 😀
Gosh this so confusing, are we talking about killing the bees or eating honey. This is to controversial to me. I want to focus on farm animal torture and abuse. Insect are really on the lower end of the scale next we will feel bad for algae we eat. Please don’t we have more important issues in this world. Only reason I got on this topic is from a group I wanted to be apart of. I’m new vegan right now I’m focused on having my children get all the nutrition they need. I have been stung many times just swinging my children and heard that bees are the most dangerous for humans because of more deaths because of them. Maybe beekeepering; who knows. For now we still have honey, but enjoying more agave nectar is this bad too? I’m sorry this is just shocking to me.
Just FYI, Roundup has nothing to do with Colony Collapse Disorder. The implicated chemical group are insecticides called “neonicotinoids.” The chemical most widely in use is called Imidacloprid (It goes by a number of trade names), which is an insect neurotoxin. Further, no genetic modification (GMO) is necessary to make plants “insecticide ready” as the chemicals don’t affect the plants. These chemicals are designed to kill aphids, cut worms and other insects that are harming the plants.
ain’t no such animal!
I’m not a vegan, nor will I ever be one. I believe that God created livestock to support we humans, the superior race. We are sentient beings and animals are not. Animal cruelty most certainly isn’t acceptable but it’s still going to happen no matter what just like murder and hate crimes… We can try and reduce such things but we will never rid the world of them. I’m not saying anything against veganism… what works for you won’t work for me and that’s perfectly fine. Anyways… How dare you say that it’s perfectly fine to harm humans?!?!?!? We’re the ones that matter! Your putting people down could lead to them committing suicide. Then how would you feel???? I know too many people who struggle with depression and bullying and you’re the exact type of bully that they deal with. You’re such a stereotypical person- it completely shows in your comments… You think that you’re living correctly and that your way is the ONLY way and if people don’t see things your way than they’re just wasting breath. You criticize people for being naive and yet you fail to realize that you’re the most naive person of all…
Traditional animal husbandry practices could be looked at as symbiosis as well, and are mostly fine. This modern factory farming, and peoples refusal to acknowledge how evil our U.S. big food industry is because it would force them to eat less meat (because it would not be as cheap) is not fine at all. If a human is dumb enough to commit suicide cause of reading a reply to why honey is not vegan, well thats sad. But not nearly as sad as the suffering inflicted daily from unquestionably supporting factory farming and looking the other way.
If you’re talking about me, I never said I supported factory farming. I think consumerism is completely sick, how our entire population wants more everything, but even vegans are consumers so… that will never change.
Animals most certainly ARE sentient beings. People are the ones that matter??? According to whom? Animals don’t matter? The earth doesn’t matter? What a disgusting way of thinking.
Animals are sentient beings. They feel things. It’s ironic that you claim that other people are responsible for someone harming themselves (not true–a person is responsible for their actions 100% of the time and cannot control what other people say or do to them) and yet you brush off any notion that animals feel pain or contentment.
Don’t mean to edge in here although that’s what trolling is all about, but I was going back and reading this more carefully because everyone on here is so reasonable and sensitive, even Miranda was showing signs of life. Anyways you said “a person is responsible for their actions 100% of the time and cannot control what other people say or do to them” I found that slightly ironic, because if a person has no control over how others treat them, but are held completely responsible for their emotional reactions..I don’t know it seems like there is more to this than meets the eye, especially because of each players limited awareness causing everyone to be ignorant of much. I have had the weird fortune to have been a member of a small community where two people who died of suicide and 20 others died of their own actions within one year, it was inconclusive how many of those deaths were suicidal, but probably not that many. If you looked closely at that community there was a well concealed undercurrent of cruelty. Even in the aftermath there seemed to be some satisfaction in the surviving members. I know that in one case the emotional situation the man was in because of the actions of some of the other members was what I would call murder. As a result of that situation Im consistently tempted to consider my emotional effect on others, and in some way I am responsible. The other man that took his life, I was upset about my life, he smiled to much and that irritated me a little. Anyways I was in no way friendly to him although not mean, but he was just pacing around the parking lot. He could not find a job, he was 60, I was also out of work and upset that day. He smiled, he said something like ‘its a bit hard to find a job when your as old as I am’, and I scoffed (because I could also not find a job and was upset about something else) and said ‘maybe you could be a Wal-Mart greeter’. He said ‘yep, yep theres always that’ , like a champ and then shot himself in the head that night. I know that I can be a prick but why! Why didn’t I just take the time to fuckin think. Now I am sad about it to this day because of my stupid mouth. Looking out for others, taking their perspective into consideration is a full time job, but it’s not to much to ask, not from me anymore. Yea this post has gotten way out of hand.
When you or your loved ones are bullied by more superior ones, let’s see you say the same thing! And, yes.. let’s all be selfish because we are all that matters. Committing suicide is saddening but killing is our right! Very well said. And you contradict yourself
“You think that you’re living correctly and that your way is the ONLY way and if people don’t see things your way than they’re just wasting breath. You criticize people for being naive and yet you fail to realize that you’re the most naive person of all…”…
bizarre because this is exactly what i thought of you when you said ” I believe that God…” and “people need Jesus..” Your religion isn’t the only one you know…plenty of others out there saying theirs is the only true one.
Oh and the definition of ‘Sentient’ is to be able to perceive or feel things…so maybe you want to go back and correct your comment.
We are the ones destroying this earth if i do recall correctly. This to say that no one life should be treated as inferior to any other. I won’t tell you how to live and you, please don’t tell any other loving bieng how to live either.
Nature isn’t kind, loving or fair. doesn’t give you privy to love, patience l and whatever you state. Nature is why we are here and if you don’t get that then you’ll pay the price eventually. If you agree with respecting nature the. You have to be versus nurture tbh.
I think that we only can do our best without judging.
This entire thread is moronic. I eat honey, deal with it.
The silliness of being totally against eating meat when many animals are carnivores is just silly.
The cruelty free part is important, but many of you simply go to the point of idiocy when it comes to being a vegan. It’s interesting that so many of you don’t seem to understand why it doesn’t catch on with more people.
You’re totally right. I was a meat for every meal and beef jerky for a snack guy. I went a fast to get closer with god so I gave up meat and gluten for a month. Two months later I only eat meat and eggs once a week (stayed totally gf) and noticed I don’t even look forward to the meat anymore. I just felt so good I didn’t want to go back. As a conservative I was kinda nervous that I would get accused of being a “crazy vegan” like those peta people lol that’s the problem when you make vegan somewhat of a religion. It makes people who might want to eat this way shy away. Is it silly? Yes. Is it true? Yes. Do you really want less cruelty to animals or do you want a to make a political statement. I’m probably not articulating my point correctly but I hope you guys get the gist. Try to make it inclusive and don’t love animals more than people, it sounds crazy!!
Animals are ment for food, that’s why they are so delicious
And why there is have a food chain
Notice that the two in the comment section that can’t manage to slap a coherent sentence together are endorsing meat eating. Meant-goofball. “Why there is have”? Two dopes who should never get together and breed. That kid would end up with a fist coming out of his or her forehead.
Why would you even say such things?! Or to make fun of birth defects?!?!?!?!?! They actually happen and not because of dumb people! Have you ever heard of autocorrect?!??! Maybe it messed their sentences up! I’m willing to bet that you’re a liberal and if you are this is exactly what upsets me about your side- you want peace and equality for everyone except for those who disagree with you.
You think TE Fetty and Guy Future can string together a coherent sentence? I think the B12 deficiency has gotten to your brain; it’s known to cause problems with cognition.
The food chain is real, but bad. I am good. The world, nature, is unfair, but I am fair enough, so I try. So I’m going to participate in that as little as I can. I may one day just stop eating all together and live on, or not, energy from the sun. I’m not that pure yet though, but one day.
Human babies may be delicious. Should you eat them? You are a disgusting human that allows things to be tortured for your pleasure.
How many times a day do you call someone disgusting? Just out of interest.
Alot. There are alot of selfish humans that want meat to be cheap enough to eat 3 times a day or more and allow inhumane acts to be done while they look the other way and act mad when someone harms a dog, like they dont PAY to have worse done daily for their pleasure. Allowing torture for extra pleasure. What is that if not disgusting? There are ways to practice animal husbandry that is not inhumane, but thats not good enough because then maybe they only could afford meat once a day or everyother day or “gasp” heaven forbid once a week.
I’d say you’re the selfish one seeing as you can’t even see past your own anger and self-righteousness for two seconds to realize that everyone is allowed to choose how they live and what they eat regardless of if you think it’s right or not. You do not have the right to tell anyone they are disgusting or to bully them for their life choices. You remind me of the song King of Anything by Sarah Bareilles, you should listen to it.
Also, you my friend desperately need Jesus. And I pray that the Lord would open your eyes and heart…
Lol, allowing exponentially increased suffering to cheapen and allow more eating pleasure. Yes I suppose thats your “Christian” right. Go watch the slaughterhouse videos and tell me thats OK? The bible says so. Their suffering doesnt matter. Cheap meat pleasure for me. Yah. Mmmm wouldn’t want to stop the torture and have to gasp only eat meat a couple times a week! Oh my we are under attack! Our poor christian values are under attack how dare they not let us torture animals so we can get eating pleasure from meat more often. Thats the animal part of your brain. The ego.The “beast” your book warns about but you all ignore. Never mind the true warning of letting the carnal beast desires influence your decisions. In this case ignoring and financing needlessly horrible acts.
I’m gonna pray for you!😄😄😄😄
Just go on about reading about your fairy tales. Religion is why their is hate, war and so on. It’s evil!
You’re just not right lady. Have that nervous breakdown you’ve been putting off, find Jesus for real. You can’t just laugh this off, get on the right team. The Jesus Heal It Team! Not the weird, I’m going to pray for you while you’re burning in hell team, that is not genuine. But you are. So get on the right team.
Guy Future, I totally understand where you’re coming from, but Miranda’s right in the sense that you need to stop trying to change people’s minds on what they choose to eat.
If they choose to eat meat, be a vegetarian, and/or vegan; it doesn’t matter what they choose, but their decisions need to be respected and as I’ve read through your comments, you’re not respecting those who choose to eat meat.
Also, be mindful that more than 1/2 this world grew up on meat. Of course crops was one of the very first things that came about for food, but there was a time period of those who hunted animals for food for survival since they didn’t have the necessities back then as we do now. I feel like hunting was a huge part of how meat industries came about.
I admit that I wanted to go vegetarian between 11-12 after someone told me animals were killed, and while I was upset & sad, I didn’t at the time because 1.) I was young and a picky eater. and 2.) I wouldn’t have known how to get the proper protein, vitamins, and nutrients my body would need from being a vegetarian. That wasn’t a factor for me until I got older & saw a couple videos unintentionally. I clicked on this thing in Facebook one day b/c I thought it was gonna be a video of Zendaya explaining why she had gone vegetarian, but it did lead to animal videos for me. And 1 way or another, I would have gone vegetarian because I look up to, admire and got inspired from Skylar Stecker. As a kid, the main things I’d eat would be mac & cheese, quesadillas, grilled cheeses & pasta. I didn’t eat very many vegetables. The only ones I had eaten were peas and corn.
What really got me (and I apologize if I ruin this for anyone else) was seeing a chicken’s head getting butchered. But there are people out there who are picky who don’t know how to properly incorporate vegetables into their diet. And I apologized above because I do respect those who choose to eat meat because it is Their Decision, no one else’s. Yes, of course it’s sad & inhumane that animals get butchered, but it’s also for protein content and other nutrient benefits. There are also people who are Pescetarian (someone who doesn’t eat meat, but eats fish), a Flexitarian (who only eats chicken), and a new one I just learned called a Fruitarian who is someone that their diet mainly consists of fruits only and some nuts & seeds without animal products. And where I happen to live, there are more people either Pescetarian (not only due to protein, but due to its Omega-3s) & Vegetarian. I love it when I see a huge group of cows up in the hills either laying down, walking, grazing and/or running (it’s hilarious when they run).
But last time I’m gonna say this: Please be respectful of their decisions because it is their choice, not anyone else’s.
First off, hunting came first, then farming. And I am not opposed to killing animals to eat them. People WANT that to be the issue so they write it off as unreasonable. Its modern factory misery farming g for maximum profit and taste that is the problem. And the fools play blind so they dont have to put forth effort. If this was before the civil war in the US, would you say I need to respect people decisions to own slaves are not? Because bit was accepted and people grew up that way for generations? Or were they disgusting pricks that looked the other way because then they wouldn’t make as much money? Factory farming is misery, and it is allowed to go on. The people that allow it, once they see the deplorable conditions, are responsible if they choose not to act.
It’s very possible to eat meat and consume eggs/dairy without buying from factory farms, and there are many, many, many more omnivores out there who are opposed to factory farming and raise their animals themselves, hunt, or buy from small local farmers than there are vegans. But when you go around comparing eating an animal to eating a baby, or raising an animal for food to owning slaves, all of these people immediately know you’re completely off your rocker. Vegans could be working to build SO MUCH MORE SUPPORT for animal welfare legislation but instead they’re just making everyone think they belong in a looney bin.
well there’s a self righteousness comment if ever i heard one. ‘Desperately need Jesus”…how rude.
Dang are you right on the money Guy.
I apologize for using the word disgusting. I was only using it because I wrote a troll post to Guy as a joke on Miranda, nothing personal Miranda, and I had to show Guy that I was playing around. Yes it’s gross to eat dead bodies, however I felt a little wrong about that because people are never ‘disgusting’ I shouldn’t have said it because it was wrong.
It is disgusting to call a fellow human being disgusting for their food choices. The language of shaming is digusting. You are like an SJW that screams into peoples faces about ‘micro-aggression’.
Food choices? Allowing torture and paying for wholesale suffering. Yeah just a “food choice” so its no big deal. YOUR disgusting, making excuses for people not considering the ramifications of their actions and pretending they are nice people when they allow suffering for their increased/ easy pleasure. Just a “food choice” my ass. try being that food and seeing what a big deal it is. Are cannibals not disgusting? People that eat factory meat are not much better. Sorry its hard to hear everyone. no one like to confront the evil of their actions, they want to hide behind society, “oh its just that way, i guess ill enjoy this steak filled with suffering”
You talk about reducing suffering and considering ramifications but will shout in peoples faces, guilt tripping them and shaming them and otherwise bullying them to try to control peoples actions. If you were in front of me, I would challenge you to a duel. But your impunity means you can act such a coward.
have style. I like it. I would accept the duel and probably lose by some derserved universal fluke and your blade would rust in my trolly trolly heart..anyone that reads the comments section in an article like this is probably pretty tough. thats my only defense.
In thhis case thats what needs to be done. Governments are talking depopulation what do you think that means? Do you really want our governments to kill 6 people every year so you can continue to eat meat? Too tasty? Dont you think that merits shouting at all? Or would you rather discuss calmly over tea how youre going to depopulate the third world so that the whites can eat meat?
Oh please, it’s white people the world government is getting rid of….. at least first
Dunno about that, it seems like the numbers would be the only reliable source for that kind of judgement and the numbers are saying it’s not the whites. If white heterosexuals refuse to get along and have unprotected sex with one another then that’s on them.
I’m half joking half not but if we are gonna go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy of population control I’ll say this. Those who dictate the culture went from making homosexuality exceptable to making it superior to heterosexuality. It’s all a ploy to emasculate society and stop reproduction. The traditional family is being destroyed, women are told they are wasting their lives if they raise children instead of having a career, heterosexual men are being portrayed as something passé and uncool, our food supply is full of estrogens and same thing for our plastic drinking bottles. This is all to make men docile and easy to control and women are kept from having kids. Don’t even get me started on the abortion industry……
This is why I’m eating vegan mostly and organic always.
Yea I agree with you mostly, however I’m sort of satisfied with it in a way because its so irritating being bossed around by men, not that I want to dominate them either. The gay thing I’ve sort of watched from a distance and while I know it’s not on point Im satisfied with that too, because all the Religious folks who psychologically tortured me as a child are getting a little taste of my reality, and that makes me happy. From a distance though, because I will never come out of the closet, I am to comfortable living a double life now. Oh well you know the world is a fucked up place, as it will always be. On the population control tip I couldn’t agree with you more, there’s nothing more terrifying to a controller than a country full of strong, healthy, intelligent, self determining, armed, wealthy family units probably. It’s still possible though to hold your head up and keep your dignity and power even though the culture is trying to gaslight everyone. Last thing, I’ve heard about the plastics before but haven’t had time to learn about it and have another mental problem. Anyways how serious is it? Okay ttly
You’re no different seeing as Jesus was tortured, beaten and crucified for YOUR sinful pleasures.
Wait, I didn’t do once or continue to pay people keep torturing jesus or others so I could have sin. It happened before I was around d to affect the outcome. Always back to that nonsense. If Christians focuses on Jesuses teachings half as much as they focused on trying to cram some sort of meaning I to his death. Did Jesus preach about the meaning of his death? NO. He was dead. Even when he came back for a minute before leaving ,but not dying again, did he say, forget what I said, focus on nothing but my death. Christianity and Islam ugh. They are both terrible for humanity.
How about not use the bible as an excuse to not take responsibility for YOUR actions. Thats what its primarily used for.
Sorry Guy, Jesus was crucified for you’re personal sins, that’s just a fact. You see God crucified his good child to satiate his own anger toward his other children who were not yet born. Looking in the comment sections of the internet it doesn’t take a theologian to realize why God was so pissed! And the fact that your sins forced God to kill Jesus justifies it when Christians kill and eat animals today, even though it doesn’t even need that additional justification since they’re not sentient. See? Very simple!
God was angry at those not yet born? What a jerkwad. And animals are not sentient? Have you had a cat or dog?
And the fact that I forced god, before I was born, to kill Jesus allows me to not just eat animals, but to treat them like dirty machines crammed together for maximum eating pleasure?
This replies lack of real logic and twisted made up logic shows how religion has been used to justify convenient atrocities across the ages. Jesus never once preached or taught a lesson based on his death…his true messages have been garbled and hidden behind that meaning less Crucifixion that is warped to fit whatever circumstance your trying to stay comfortable in. If you think Jesus would be cool with a modern factory farm, then you really need to do some more study.
I ‘m sorry I was more making fun of miranda. But yea thats pretty much accurate to Christianity, although no one should put it so bluntly. I agree factory farms are immoral, disgusting.
Lol I’m a dummy!
Naw that was pretty fing twisted. Keep up the good work!
Dude, I’m re reading this. I love how focused you are on truth! And how you use your own mind to see the freaking truth that’s freaking plain to see, unlike everyone else! Anyways, yeah, I’m playing it cool I won’t lay it on to thick but I’m legitimately impressed with your statement “Did Jesus preach about the meaning of his death? NO. He was dead. Even when he came back for a minute before leaving ,but not dying again, did he say, forget what I said, focus on nothing but my death.” and some others, anyways you must be ya know, you have the gift.
That’s fucking hilarious. Well how about we make a plan to eventually stop crucifying Jesus ? Sound good, or to much work?
I’m so glad you mentioned that there are different motivations for being a vegan. I get tired of hearing that there’s only one true motive. Aaack. The world is full of different people. However they get to veganism, the fact that they are interested or even arrive — hallelujah!
There are many reasons to eat a plamt based diet.
VEGANISM is a justice movement to free the other animals from human domination.
A shame the poor plants and prokaryotes will still be under our dominion. :^(
Heartbreaking! If plants had hearts! At least we would harvest far fewer acres of the “poor” plants, and we could stop clearing the Amazon for grazing and growing cattle feed. 80% of cropland is now devoted to growing food for farmed animals.
Welp, I guess that means I can rule over starfish and jellyfish as they don’t have hearts either! :^D
A shame the poor plants will still be eaten and cut down regardless of cattle feed becuz us filthy humans still need: logging, lodging, agriculture, mineral mining, oil and dams. Gee, it’s almost as if the problem isn’t an omnivorous diet but humanity’s inefficiency at most things, or something. :^(
But that’s absurd, of course. It surely can’t be that.
Most farmed land is used to feed the animals people eat. 80% of agricultural land!
You speak of inefficiency. Here is the worst case of using land inefficiently.
Why bring up forestry? You are trying to change the subject.
Um, what? Can you not read? Firstly, you’re the one who brought up deforestation, ‘clearing the Amazon’, implying that it’s a huge problem because the world is mostly omnivorous. So, I corrected you, saying that it’s still gonna happen regardless and will speed up regardless with the growing human population. Why? Because we are inefficient.
And, exactly, using that much land is inefficient. But it’s not because we eat meat, but because we’re in an inflated, greedy world. We can and will still mess shit up, even if the world were to go vegan. I mean, just the act of the whole world going vegan on it’s own will mess up the balance of things/food chain. Then we’d have to kill off some animals, or something, to get things in order, e.t.c The point is, we’re simply inefficient. There’re better ways, but we aren’t using them for some reason or another.
Funny how you say “Then we’d have to kill off some animals, or something, to get things in order, e.t.c” When everything was fine without us so we wouldn’t even have to kill off a animals population😂
Nope. You’re exactly right – everything WAS fine without us. Keyword: ‘was’. Now we’ve come and changed everything. The chicken is at 50 billion, cows at 1.4 billion, sheep and pigs at 1 billion, e.t.c And we haven’t even began to talk about the rabbits and their excessive reproduction. Heard of the rabbit crisis in Australia, where some rabbits where brought there, multiplied, and caused insane damage to crops? Think that, but globally. And it only worsens because we’ll now rely mostly on crops as our only food source. That amount of prey running around is going to mess stuff up. We’d need to manually organise the food chain so it is as it was when we were still herbivores, which was over 65 million years ago. The simplest way to do that is to kill off a bunch of animals. I mean, there’re better ways, but they’re far more effort than they’re worth, like trying to slowly take meat out of our diet which could probably take centuries considering the state the world is currently in.
Absolutely! And sorry for getting on here so late. I am new to veganism or according to some I should just say plant based diet because I’m not an activist. Anyway Mila I totally agree with you! Another thing to add our ancestors damaged animals for ever, this thing called selective breeding. They made sheep with longer hair to make clothes with, and they managed to stop them from malting. The result? Sheep have to be sheared twice a year to stop them getting infested with maggots? Already the farmers lose money paying to have them clipped-you think they’re gonna do that if NK one eats them. We are in a real catch 22 situation. Those of us trying and hoping others will join us then that’s great. What’s never great? Bullying. End of.
I can think of a case for bullying. Like 6 people have to be killed this year because of your behavior ( and they are complaining heartily, slinging derogatory comments at you that are causing you to feel diminished self esteem, shame, etc.) unless you stop they will die, who do you punish? Is an offhand comment ‘okay’ to say if someone is ruining everyone else’s life? What you guys are saying is that, nothings going to be perfect, so fuck it all. In reality that is probably just an excuse for selfish behavior. It’s to pessimistic, and I don’t say that lightly, because things really are bad. There are tons of things that could benefit from slight improvements though. Like maybe Janet still dies, but Maria will now have clean water. For awhile, several people will have diminished suffering on their way to inevitable death. It’s a matter of compassion, not this fuck all attitude. All that does is delay changes that have to take place. So shame, bullying, yeah why not? Is bullying really worse than murder in this case? I think you’re jumping on a popular bandwagon to claim victim status and denying your real responsibility to others. If it were the other way around, if someone had to stop using, for you not to just not die, but for your continuous torture and deprivation to stop would you have the same philosophy? (This is nothing personal to you guys, it’s your temporary ideas I’m trying to talk to, not you) If I’m right, okay, if I’m wrong prove it to me.
Waitdid you just say Humans were around 65million years ago??? WTF seriously??? Even you far left loonies respect Evolution enough to know Humans even Homo Erectus didn’t exist anywhere around the time of the Mass Extinction when the Dinosaurs were wiped out..
Yup. Fine. But then someone decided the world needed man. Enter, Adam. And of course, the evil Eve. And a brand new world began. One where animals were food.
meat production produces more greenhouse gases than the others and it is something we don’t actually need and consumers can change it. So I believe it is where we can make the most difference without the government who do nothing anyway.
So you the animal rights advocate thus are s uggesting the mass slaughter of cattle chickens etc all raised for food.. Yeah that makes sense.. (SMH).. JFC you guys don’t even realize how stupid you sound
Yes your right.. Please stop eating all together.. If you do itll mean sacrificing your life but itll be for the betterment of the plants and animals as they wont be exploited.. In fact you can speed up the process if you just drink a cup of Clorox Bleach and die quickly.. (But painfully see it as your sacrifice for Mother Earth)
Wtf! Lmao. A justice movement? This whole thread is absolutely hilarious.
That’s incorrect, the issues are connected. Depopulation is a white racist response to a perceived shortage in resources. Veganism is a solution that allows us all to continue to eat and live for some time. As was said above 80 percent or so of the worlds agriculture is used to feed animals we eat, thus diminishing real nutritional output by a huge amount. Its genius, solves most of our problems, but its not profitable, thats why its not being shoved down your throat.
This is only being addressed to you, because this is only as far as my eyes have progressed down the page, but it is meant to reach the general populace.
My question, for the moral vegans. Not the vegans who have chosen to eat plant based diet for health reasons.
Let’s say, the whole world decides, tomorrow, to stop eating meat. Of course, that will mean no more farming of animals for meat. This is great. We just let them all loose to live naturally and die when it’s time. Where will they live? Where will they wander? Do we spay and neuter them all before setting them free? Do we stop domesticating cats? No more pets? Set them all free to live naturally and die naturally?
Can someone please describe the process for me? Where do we start and where does it stop?
I’m not a vegan… but your question about what we would do if everyone
suddenly stopped eating doesn’t need a solution.. namely because (as you
know) the situation you describe wouldnt happen. Even the most
ambitious yet realisctic model (from a vegan perspective), would be a
slow decline in the “requirement” for agricultural animals. I would
imagine this decline would be managed with an simple, sensible and appropriate reduction in breeding activities.
i said, I’m not a vegan, I agree that domestic pets seems to be a
double standard (when kept by vegans) since they are put in the the role
of pet on the whim of the owner, no baby animal chooses to be a pet,
and so a pet is exploited (though hopefully in equitable and relatively
enjoyable way for the pet).
It’s a rationalization to say it’s just as bad to stop murdering animals as to keep murdering them. I forgot what the name of the logical fallacy is you’re using here, but it’s a ridiculous argument. The likelyhood of that being a problem is very little. If it were it’s a smaller problem than directly killing 11 billion animals each year, and if we were that motivated to stop on such a large scale, we likely would find a way to minimize the pain of killing less animals.
Well, if vegans are TRULY involved in a justice movement, they would first fight for ALL humans to be free from human domination. I am tired of elitist racist white vegans loving animals more than people.
attacking people because of their race is racist! I am white, I am vegan, I am also a woman who marched for equality for all, against apartheid, against nuclear weapons, I worked as a nurse in third world countries voluntarily, I worked suporting people ( all people) living with hiv. I campaigned for gay rights. I am also a wife of many years, a mothr, a grandmother and a great grandmother. I am vegan because I believe in respect for AlLL life. I now work voluntarily supporting young parents . Dont judge me , you font know me
You have no idea what racism is or what being a racist is if you think my comment was racist. I was writing about 1) vegans and 2) elitist white vegans…not ALL white folks and not ALL vegans and not ALL white vegans.
1) I didn’t respond/write to you in the first place
2) I wrote, “elitist racist white vegans..”…obviously that touched a nerve.
If you aren’t that, then my comment wasn’t about you. Since you responded, obviously you identify as that and that….is…your…issue.
I’m proud to be meeting you. I do not feel attacked by you. I hear you loud and clear.
What you’ve done in your lifetime is more than any ten others have managed to do, collectively. It’s wonderful. I’m just going to ask this…..
Does this respect include omnivorous people, or are we the exception?
Why is animal life lower than a human life and not equal. Both are living things. There is no rile that humans are in charge and by The way they are doing a crappy job of being in charge
Never said it was lower. I simply said if vegans were TRULY interested in justice, they would be fighting for the justice of ALL humans to make sure we were living equally. Actually there is, it is called the Bible. And, it is ok if you don’t subscribe to the ideas in the Bible, yet I won’t stand for vegans using racist marketing campaigns to bring attention to the plight of animals. If a vegan cannot see that the horrors of American slavery are NOT in any way shape or form the same as the harming of animals, then there is a very big problem in the vegan community.
Yes Dogly !! As Buddha says, ”ignorance is the cause of all suffering’”
And Isaac Bashevis Singer said,
“As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.”
So yes, Animal and Human rights go together , it’s one fight !! So indeed, it is A justice movement 👌🌱🧐
Tyvm for this! This is the type of thing every human needs to read. I think instead of worrying about honey being vegan or not, the real question should be, what we can do as humans to “help” the earth, animals and all living things. We also need to keep in mind the sociology input grey lines that exist in all kingdoms where we all live and awareness of some of the damage done from our ancestors. The only truest fact of all facts is that all living things die, with that we should all try our best to help eachother during our coexistence.
Love love love xxxx
Did you not watch the video?
You are absolutely right. Exclusive, arrogant and condescending comments only harden the “enemy’s” resolve to be gore-filled fucktards…oops, did I say “gore”.
I grew up in a traditional family on a dairy farm and man did that hurt. I have been a vegan now for 23 years and I have found that people listen best to calm, non-threatening Socratic reasoning much more than shouting from a soapbox. All my years of righteous activistic rage were nothing compared to a few well thought out discussions. It comes down to people emulating others they see as strong, healthy, wealthy and hot. Pick you battles (industrialized farming vs. bee-torture…you tell me what animals the majority of gluttonous folk will identify with most), plan for the long-haul (it’s a life-time of telling the Truth, in small doses, and changing lives, one human and one animal at a time), and remember that actions and self-confidence speak volumes when weighed against words.
so, anything that you don’t personally agree with is “exclusive, arrogant and condescending”? And being clear and concise about what veganism *actually* is, is “shouting from a soapbox”? Wow. We don’t need to “pick our battles”–we need to unequivocally, clearly and consistently advocate for veganism. Talk about reasoning–try using some.
Your screen name is telling.
It was chosen deliberately. I’m not one of those rainbow and unicorn spiritual earth mother vegans, if that’s what you perceive as joyful. What brings me tremendous joy is in living consistently with my understanding that if animals matter, which they do, they we can’t exploit them because doing so harms them and we should not harm those who matter. Animals are NOT things–and it brings me great joy knowing that my way of living–consistent–is not harming animals. However, what frustrates me is the insistence of some who call themselves vegan that we should not promote the idea that animals matter because it’s just too gosh darn hard, inconvenient, or–my personal fave–divisive. That puts a serious dent in my joy, and I call it every time I see it because it causes harm to those I am seeking to keep from harm.
How do you help animals? is it through you condicending tone on social media sites? How about you list all the organizations that you think Non-Vegans should pparticipate in exit quietly.
How do you help animals? Is it through your condescending tone on social media sites? How about you list all the organizations that you think Non-Vegans should participate in to help the cause and exit this blog quietly.
i help them by not eating them, including not eating things they are used to make, like honey. This seems really obvious to me. I won’t “exit quietly” and you will not silence me. I advocate for all animals, including bees. Go eat some fiber yourself, dipshit
All vegans help by not eating them you act as if you have done something better than the rest of us. You are angry, selfish and not helping the cause in my opinion. The people you comment to with ignorant remarks and name calling like “dipshit” will silence you with compassion not only for animals and bees but for humans as well. Try kale it may help you with your attitude.
“Vegans” who eat honey or tell nonvegans it’s okay to eat honey are NOT helping “the cause”. You can think whatever you want of me, but given that you know nothing about me it doesn’t really mean much at all. I don’t need “kale” to “help me with my attitude”–what I need is for vegans to be consistent in their message to nonvegans that ALL animal use is wrong. And if you can’t wrap your mind around that concept, you’ve earned the title of “dipshit”. Have a great fiber-filled day.
If someone wants to know if a practice or prodict is vegan they need only ask themselves one single question.
Does it use animals?
If NO – Then it’s vegan.
If Yes – Then it’s not vegan.
What could be simpler?
Vegans don’t use animals.
Got it, only fruit & veg pollinated by hand or wind, aside from the occasional tomato. I wonder how do you know whether a given tomato had help from a pollinator? Is there a giant anti-bee shield around the tomato farm?
Everyone has been calling her names, while she calmly has explained what the philosophy and justice movement that is veganism actually IS.
Dipshit is a mild rebuke after the abusive comments against Joyless Vegan.
Read what she wrote. She answered many questions asked here.
Love you guys! Unfortunately, going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think the plight of the honeybee is a huge issue with its place as a keystone species in our ecosystem. Remove honeybees and you would have widespread ecocide. I do not think it’s arrogant/crazy for us, as vegans, to say we don’t eat honey and if some one asks why to tell them the reason. I have a friend who asked why I don’t eat honey and after giving my explanation (bee population being halved in the past decade from the use of certain pesticides, beekeeping techniques that densify a colony so that contamination of bee disease is widespread, etc) they have told me “wow I didn’t realize that.” And now they are not looking at me as a crazy person but rather now they are more educated in the plight of the honeybee.
So is it neonicotoids that we should worry about? I let a beekeeper set up his boxes next to my fruit orchard. I think the bees will be even better at spreading pollen than the wind. I’m hoping the artificial ecosystem in my yard is a workaround for the damage done by chemicals.
You do realize that much of the agriculture that vegans eat relies on pollination by bees for it’s production? And that one of the main reasons that honeybees were brought to the new world (they are not native to the americas) was for crop pollination?
Thank you. For this reason I think its important to support beekeeping.
One can assist bees without stealing their labor and food.
Alfred, I agree with everything except your last sentence. I’m not sure people knew of the importance of pollination in the 1600s but they DID know about honey.
Eating honey is not causing the honeybee, or any bee, population to decline. One MAJOR problem is non-organic farming within the bees distribution rages (which you mentioned), where the pesticides are directly and indirectly killing off the bees (domestic honey and native bumblebees). Also, the whole point of pesticides is to kill off bugs, so eating non-organic is not vegan (if you want to be technical). The other huge issue to bees is land clearing and developmet, which takes away the nectar producing flowers bees need in the first place. Another thing: did you know that much of the bee production is for pollinating agricultural crops, and not for consumable honey? I don’t think vegans who avoid honey are “crazy”, but it’s definitely another level of “extreme” that a lot of people don’t understand. Good on you for being able to effectively explain it to non-vegans.
honey harvesting as well as habitat destruction and poison (pesticides ) does decline that bee population?
Are you saying bees have another source of food during the winter season ? Or JUST TALKING? -_-
Have you ever seen bees flying around in the wintertime?
That’s because they’re frozen. Just like the mosquitos, and wasps and all other insects that freeze during the winter. They don’t need to eat anything because they are playing dead.
Bees don’t freeze in the winter, they cluster up and move slowly through the comb. Ask any beekeeper, I keep bees myself. If the cluster is too small they will freeze and die. Most beehives produce an excessive amount of honey, a certain percentage can be removed prior to winter, carefully without killing a single bee, leaving the hive with plenty to survive the winter. This is the method most hobbyist beekeepers employ. It’s very sustainable and ethical. Many times my hives have 50+ lbs of honey remaining the following Spring.
I think anyone who supports bee life is someone I want to support, since we have so many agents attacking them. I consider myself a vegan, but I don’t shy away from honey if it’s offered. (Yeah, go ahead, thrash me if you will. But please, read on.) If no one cared for the bees, we’d be without our pollinators. Also, most vegans I know use as much plastic as they please and drive everywhere. I consider those more harmful to our ecosystem as a whole, and to the environment in which all critters live — not just the “enslaved” ones. I’m trying to concern myself with the big picture here.
Why does “caring” for the bees require stealing from them? Because we are selfish exploiters, who, ungrateful to the bees for pollinating our crops, must also steal the fruits of their labor.
Thank you. This is why I don’t call myself vegan anymore (I eat a plant-based diet). This tunnel vision that has the typical vegan I’ve encountered so focused on one thing (animals) to the exclusion of all other activities they engage in that are harmful to the environment.
I thought this was pretty cool. Not necessarily the kind of tone I would use but it’s great that Matt Ball is finally used as a reference rather than more dogmatic individuals… *cough* Garys *cough*
So……….”dogmatic” means, in your mind, being consistent in practicing what one believes? So, if I believe that it is morally wrong to use animals for my own gain, when I have no need to whatsoever, I am being “dogmatic” in living my life according to that principle? By that logic, people who advocate against racism and live their lives according to the principle of not being racist are similarly dogmatic?
dogmatic= given to asserting or imposing personal opinions; arrogant (sounds like you, here, actually);
intolerantly authoritative (how is being consistent in thought and action “intolerantly authoritative”?)
And if you are referring to Gary Francione, well, he’s hardly dogmatic. I think *cough* “morally consistent” *cough* is what you’re looking for there.
Look up dogmatic and save us the time.
Troll. And one that upvotes itself, too. LOL
Honey is not vegan. And I’m is not vegetarian. I’m a vegetarian and I don’t eat honey or eggs.
*and it’s not vegetarian.
Did you watch the video?
I’m a vegetarian who drinks ahimsa milk (where the cows lives a pleasant life outside and doesn’t get killed). My question is, are the bees harmed or do they suffer when producing honey or are they doing what they would do naturally and we just take the leftover products? If that’s the case I would agree that it’s ok to eat, that’s the whole point of being vegan no?
………….what happens to all the calves? I mean, in order to get milk, cows must bear a calf. There would end up being a massive surplus of animals, not all of whom would be “productive”. So……what happens to the calves? I suspect that, as in any other dairy, they end up dead.
And no, you have entirely missed the point of veganism. Being vegan means we don’t exploit other sentient beings. Period. It doesn’t matter if products of their bodies are “left over” or if they “suffer”. What matters is that they are sentient beings who have inherent value, not just value we decide to give them based on what we can take from them, and they have their own interests, which include not being used as resources, in any way, by humans.
No, they don’t end up dead, they live out their natural lives in peace and harmony with their caretakers that love them. The humans lovingly take care of the cows and in return mother cow shares her milk with us. It is a relationship based in love, not exploitation and is very joyful! 🙂 it’s a beautiful thing…
It is exploitation because the cows cannot give their consent. It is not a “beautiful thing” for humans to take things from other animals that we don’t even need. “Peace and harmony” involves letting animals exist for their own sakes and not what we can take from them.
It’s amazing the things people tell themselves to justify their greed and selfishness–the cows “share” their milk, indeed. SMH.
Actually they do give consent, just not with words that we are used to. When you call them by name and they come running to you for feeding or milking they are very happy. Plus, a calf usually cannot drink all the milk that mom produces, mama needs to be milked to get relief otherwise she will be very uncomfortable and suffer. It is a win win for all involved. I would encourage you to spend some time on an ahimsa farm, you will see… 😉
…are you serious? “mama needs to be milked to get relief”. If we weren’t breeding her for her milk to begin with, then no, she wouldn’t “need” this relief. And no, they don’t give their consent. They can’t. You are projecting all kinds of things onto them. It is definitely NOT a “win-win” for the cows–only the humans. Unfortunately, people like you are contributing to a lot of unnecessary suffering. SMH.
Does that include “owning” pets? I find so many vegans own cats, esp. and I don’t get that. How one can be an ethically correct vegan and own a naturally carnivorous pet, either feeding it vegan (a form of selfish imposition of one’s dietary ethics contrary to the cat’s nature) or one can feed it meat, which I assume a committed vegan could never do.
Yeah I don’t think they will answer the cat thing LOL. I have actually thought about, what would it take for my family to go vegan and still remain as self-sufficient as possible… and if you are a person that actually pays attention to where your food comes from, and you think it’s abusive to feed an animal a nutritionally-deficient diet, and you are a person who rescues stray cats… well it’s completely untenable now, isn’t it? I’m going to raise and slaughter animals for my cats to eat and call myself a vegan because I don’t eat any of it myself? Or would the vegans prefer we all euthanize our stray cats so humans no longer have to bear the responsibility of feeding them? Giving them to a shelter would be no help as they’ll be adopted by someone who will feed them meat, or euthanized. 100% veganism does not make any rational sense.
Veganism means to be against the exploitation of nonhuman animals. Bees are nonhuman animals. So honey isn’t vegan! Fact. Sounds pretty rational to me. Keep in mind objectifying bees perpetuates the system that objectifies chickens (and many other animals). Can we please get to the root of the problem: objectification.
Veganism just means to be a strict vegetarian. Many people do chose veganism for for ethical reasons. But you can be 100% vegan amd drown puppies for the fun of it should you wish. You just can’t eat them afterwards. Many people are vegan for health reasons, or for broader ethical reasoning such as planetary sustainability, or because they’re fucking someone who is a hairshirt vegan and it makes their life easier if they’re allowed to share the fridge. Just because a lot of vegans are all like “think of the little animals” doesn’t make veganism itself an animal rights/welfare concern any more than having a penchant for cocaine and supernodels makes you a rockstar.
No!! You can’t be vegan and “drown puppies”!! Vegan is not a diet it is a lifestyle that avoids hurting, exploiting and eating animals. Human and non-human!
What if they were evil puppies? Puppies who worked in vivisection labs and did 9/11? Does being a vegan mean you couldn’t take pleasure from the gasping squeals of those vile bastards as the water fills their tiny, hate-filled lungs? Of course not. You’re talking bollocks.
Lol! Vegan might be a lifestyle, but there are many people who use it for weight loss. A close loved one of mine was using it to cover up an extreme eating disorder. People can eat whatever way they want without principle or ethics attached to it. Be realistic.
Veganism IS an extreme eating disorder, imo.
Well that is your opinion. Phew! so glad I care more about the well being of animals, the planet and my health than I do about your opinion.
I think the Standard American Diet is pretty extreme. It leads to heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. We all know this to be true, yet these 3 , very preventable, illnesses are of the top leading causes of death in this country. That’s insane. Eating a plant based diet is essential for a long, healthy life.
Amen Brother! Too bad most of society would rather consume animal products and die obese and ill than changing things up to live longer more productive lives disease free and reducing risk of said illnesses you speak of.
That’s is such a silly thing to say.
“Eating disorders are serious conditions related to persistent eating behaviors that negatively impact your health, your emotions and your ability to function in important areas of life.”
Not all vegans, btw. Just the ones who allow their diets to overtake their lives to such an extent that they become easily angered and overly irritated by people who don’t agree with their chosen lifestyle…which is roughly 98% of them according to my personal experience.
get out more
Torturing and killing others because you like their taste is extreme. Veganism is a philosophy!
That person eats a plantbased diet, which is great, but is not a vegan! Veganism: “a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.”
You’re confusing the philosophy with the diet. De-autosodomise yourself X
I certainly do not!! What are you on about!
You are talking about a plant based diet, and calling it veganism. Again:
Veganism is a justice movement to end the commodification of the other animals by US!
Vegans don’t USE veganism.
Vegans don’t USE animals. It is an ethical baseline, not a diet.
Also just a stellar comment. Thank you. I humbly bow to your superior sarcasm.
this is true…im vegan and couldn’t care less about animals. I just want my body to be pure, healthy and holy for God as a Seventh-Day Adventist Christian.
You are NOT vegan. You are a Seventh Day Adventist on a plant based diet for religious reasons.
plant based diet = vegan
No but there is a difference between a ‘vegan diet’ and being a full vegan. Vegan diet doesn’t eat animal products, full vegan doesn’t eat animals/animal products, doesn’t support animal objectification in any way shape or form. So if one considers themselves a ‘full vegan’ then I’m certain you wouldn’t catch them drowning a puppy. Same with vegetarians, there are veggie diets and full veggos. Lifestyle vegetarians do not support the killing of animals, so wouldn’t kill a puppy either.
Wrong on all counts! Veganism is NOT a kind of diet. It is a justice movement to stop the human use of animals.
It’s both diet and philosophy. The word is used, correctly, for both.
Technically, then, you’re “plant-based,” not vegan. I quit calling myself vegan because I don’t want to associate myself with the activism. “I eat a plant-based diet” is the new thing.
You are incorrect Veganism is against any use of animal products be it flesh or by-products of animals. Many strict Vegans are also against the wearing of leathers or using beauty, cleaning products that may have animal properties in them. With so many other plant based sweeteners available the use of honey is not required.
“Veganism is against any use of animal products be it flesh or ***by-products*** of animals.”
So then any fruit or vegetable that has been pollinated by BEES or BUTTERFLIES or any other pollinating INSECTS etc…
AH… GOTCHA! Good luck with avoiding those!
While the philosophy of morality is complex and nuanced, one of the great features of modern society is that moral rights can be campaigned for by passionate people in an open and inclusive discussion that leads to an evolution in society’s ethical values and the introduction and enforcement of laws that protect those values.
Your post probably fairly illustrates that some of those campaigning for animal rights can use negative rhetoric that comes across as shaming with a sense of superiority, which unfortunately may harm their cause more than it helps it. But you are close to arguing that morality should be an unvoiced personal choice. How would societies have reached a moral (and legal) consensus on things like the abolition of slavery, the protection of the weak and vulnerable, female voting rights etc if not for people challenging the status quo?
Wonder why the vegans aren’t all over your great comment? I do “plant-based” so as to avoid being associated with that judgmentalism.
Here’s the thing: the insects and other critters killed in harvesting are collateral damage. It’s going to happen no matter what. Honey is theft from the bees.
BUT if someone said “I have to give up honey too?” and that’s the only thing keeping them from going vegan, I’d say something like, “If honey is the only thing keeping you from going vegan, then give up all animal foods but honey”
every time you walk in your yard, you are creating “collateral damage” when you step on unsuspecting bugs.
Yes I realize that. But the idea is to reduce harm where possible.
I love harming mosquitos and flies. They annoy the hell out of me and i dont care if i endanger the local species. Bugs are just bugs
Yes but bees along with flies, moths etc. pollinate the plants. Think of it this way bees are the way plants have sex, if they dont have sex there wont be any plants. If there are no plants there wont be any us, and before that there wouldnt be any meat. No bugs = you die.
I ate 10 pounds of honey the other day…. I guess i’m not vegan any more… Damn.
Must be a fucking vegetarian…
Yes, but walking around or making some kind of ground contact is essential to staying alive. The point of vegetarianism and veganism is to avoid harming anything where it’s possible to do so without harming your own health or existence. If someone were on a desert island and the only edible food they found was a live animal, I would in no way condemn them for killing and eating said animal – the rational vegetarians and vegans only find that kind of thing offensive when people are eating them without necessity, i.e. for taste or convenience.
And the rest of us condemn you for being so judgmental about things that aren’t any of your concern. I for one like taste and convenience. So GFY.
No need for the foul language… It’s offensive lil mr keyboard hero!
Did I miss a comment? Where is the foul language you speak of?
Is what I was speaking of
Ya, thats pretty harsh. Better find a safe space so letters can no longer hurt you.
Jake675309 Bill and the GFY come on read between the lines here.
Simmer down, Salty Bill. 😛
Salty Bill is now my new favorite.
It’s you who are being judge-mental. I don’t bother anyone who wants to keep eating meat or other animal products. But if you ask me why I don’t, I will be honest with you. If you don’t want to know, don’t ask and don’t read posts that explain it either. You “chose” to read those, so don’t now start bemoaning the fact that you did as if someone is judging you, or perhaps it tweaked your conscience?
Right, okay. Then don’t you ever take issue with a psychopath raping and murdering a little girl. You don’t know her so it’s none of your concern.
Wau! You can say the same thing without being so aggressive. No surprise you eat animals.
There will always be callous, selfish people. We know this.
So if two people were on an Island and there is no food its ok for one to eat the other?
If there’s no other food on the island, of course. It would become survival of the fittest. The instinctive priority for any living thing is to survive (and no vegan in their right mind would take issue with true survival), which requires some kind of food. If the only food source is another living being, then it has to be them.
What if other living being was your child or father/mother?
Hunger knows no bounds. Nobody here has ever been starving, but simple science can tell you that it alters your mentality to the point that most people WOULD do that.
Here’s the lo down. It’s the truth about the world and nature, and we’ve come this far, better just acknowledge it (I’m sorry if you have a nervous breakdown, like I did when I realized this, and I saw the world this way, feel free to facebook me, if you have a nervous breakdown based on what I’m about to say, because there is a cure for it )
The fucked up truth friends, the world is a place where we have to kill and eat other living things in order to live. We must murder. We must kill, and not just animals, but plants. And not only that but we must constantly one up and slowly kill one another in order to gain higher status in the world by a system of judgments that constantly changes according to popular wishes. It’s a hierarchy, our brains are wired to give us the good feeling of chemical seritonin when we feel we’re better than another. It’s addictive racism, addictive sexism, addictive classism, addictive speceisism (just made that up) and all people who have human minds and reactions are subject to those emotional chemicals.
And the converse is true chemically, whenever you give shame, when you belittle another they feel a feeling called fear, that’s materialized in the chemical called cortisol, and it slowly kills them. So if you hate someone, good news you’re already killing them. And if you’re making really jerky physically intimidating moves at someone, good for you, you’re killing them. Your helping to break down their organs and brains and gradually their nervous system will put them into a chronic pain condition. So, your job is done, please fucking retire from your torture position.
This balance or Cortisol and Serotonin makes up the hierarchy among humans, not to mention money, or the secret life of plants, or anything else relevant. The entire World is evil. Don’t waste your time anymore.
I don’t eat the dead bodies of Mother Cows, also I don’t eat flesh period, and I don’t drink milk that’s needed to feed babies the Mother Cows might have wanted to feed to their newborn children, had they not become veil. I also don’t eat eggs that maybe the Mother Chickens might have hoped would be their children.
The reason is I looked in the Mother Cows eyes and the Mother Chickens eyes and they looked so freaking terrified I can’t stand to add to that. It’s the same tact we might take as a country with emprisoning Black People for Christ’s sake.
But we can’t avoid it, here in hell, our world. However, the world might not be moral, but I AM MORAL! The worlds just not fair, guess there’s nothing we can do… NO I am fair. I’m better than this fucked up bullshit ball of death! Nature… nature is our mother. No, nature want’s to kill me, she wants to kill me, actually she wants to kill every living thing, but I don’t care because I’M NOT LIKE THAT, and I’m telling you you’re not either.
“The point of vegetarianism and veganism is to avoid harming anything where it’s possible to do so without harming your own health or existence” In other words…….be vegan when its convenient for you to be vegan.
The philosophy of veganism is not cause any harm when we get conscious about it. Many know now about the cruelty behind animal agriculture, animal testing, animals used in entertainment, fashion, among many others. So, what happens to all the people that get to know about all these atrocities and yet prefer to fool themselves with non-sense excuses so they can keep fulfilling their pleasures no matter the cruelty, suffering and murdering?
Vegetarians and carnists call animals “things”, “it”.
Vegans refer to them as “persons”.
A “who” NOT an “it”.
Essentially. Vegetarianism is a transition. I would never recommend that someone go from meat lover to vegan overnight unless they are CERTAIN they have the willpower, because otherwise it’ll send you crazy, you’ll blame veganism itself instead of the way you did it, and never try again.
It worked for me. I felt sick but I was detoxing.
That is accidental, amd unavoidable. Stealing the labor and food of bees is deliberate and avoidable.
Theft? That’s a legal concept.
And while I realize the grubers at PETA want everyone to believe that “a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy,” it’s not theft if you’re taking from something that has no concept of ownership in the first place, any more than bears are committing “theft” of honey.
Look. If you buy PETA’s insane view of the world, fine, that’s your prerogative. But then bears are committing theft, too, if you want to be consistent. And if you don’t buy into it, then there is no “theft.”
I do like your conclusion and advice in your last paragraph. It was a return to sanity.
You are a sub-human and proud of it? 😳
“Be a role model for other species” that help?
Read Sonia’s statement below
Who said bees have no concept of ownership? Social insects can be very territorial and will fiercely protect their home and resources. To the bees, it’s pretty clear that the hive and all that is in it is “theirs”, even if they don’t have a set of complex rules to explain why and how.
Have you always based your ethics on the instinctive and necessary behavior of wild animals? Then, how are you morally superior? If you are not superior, what excuse have you to exploit other animals?
please don’t use the term “collateral damage” to refer to lives lost. this is what the US govt started to do in the late 20th century when animals and other civilians were killed during acts of war.
Seems to me that to a large degree, local apiaries are saving bees. Bees are having a tougher and tougher time surviving “human progress”, and people who make honey on a smaller scale are actually keeping the various species alive. Is honey theft from bees, or is it symbiosis?
It is theft. They work so intensely to make the honey and save it, so they can have their food for the hardest months.
Weird i feel the same way about my taxes but, im sure u guys are pro taxes right…
Bees make more than they could ever use. Not harvesting can prompt a swarm late in the year, sentencing them to certain death.
How long have you been keeping bees?
Moron. Learn before you speak. An
Your ego is the one that needs denting with your ridiculous sweeping generalisations.
Even honey bees work hard to produce wax which is their homes, honey is just residue that they use barely any of (compared to what they produced) to feed their larvae. Using wax in stuff like candles is more harmful to the bee population than eating honey…
It actually depends on the way the wax is harvested. If you’re destroying entire combs, yeah, that can bee (haha) harmful.
However, you can also harvest wax while harvesting honey. Companies will use the wax caps that were keeping the honey in the comb. If left to sit there, this wax would simply be destroyed by the bees when they ate the honey.
Also, full grown bees will also eat honey, not just larvae.
Your bad for veganism, because you are ignorant of how bees are kept and what the deal is. Monsanto roundup is killing the bees, if not for beekeeping, bees would already be extinct. Stop acting like you know about things you clearly do notnknow about. People like you make my life as a rational vegan harder than it needs to be and set people up to hate me before I can make a point. Stop it already.
It annoys me when people say God made animals so that we can eat them! I mean, seriously?? Humans are superior to other animals? Let’s see you say that to your loved ones when they get bullied!
It is theft, and we all KNOW IT!
Yes, you can definitely still view it that way from a personal standpoint, and I won’t tell you you’re wrong. Most bee colonies still do produce extreme excesses of honey. They eat it during the winter months, but often still have excess for the Spring.
I would still say it’s very smart to support your local bee keeping society (not the major big corporations, they abuse bees really badly). Hey, even vegans can keep bees without harvesting their honey! Bees need help right now, and if no one goes out of their way to ensure their survival, they’ll not survive humans.
Well, if u harvest vegetables with machines, u are killing more bugs than just some bees 😛
best comment on this entire page. ^^^^ kudos to you, good sir. kudos to you.
And they only use man made products. All that pollution must be so healthy for all those animals and bugs!!
We use PLANTS! They are not man made, they are grown in dirt! Everything all humans use is prepared for him in some way. We do not kill animals for these products.
Is that really what you think? PVC (a common “vegan leather”) is much worse for both humans and animals than sustainably produced leather, and almond milk is much worse for bees than honey. Many more bees will die being trucked in and out of California this year to pollinate the almond trees, than will die from the collection of honey. You can make lip gloss and other moisturizers from nothing other than beeswax and olive oil, and many do; I looked up the ingredients on the top “vegan lip gloss” recommended on PETA’s blog and these are the ingredients: “Polybutene, octyldodecanol, hydrogenated polyisobutene, butylene/ethylene/styrene copolymer, ethylene/propylene/styrene copolymer, ethyl vanillin, tocopheryl acetate, red 27 (CI 45410).” Wow, do those sound like plants to you? If you’re not aware, polybutene is made from petroleum — great stuff for our environment and in turn the animals that rely on it for life.
I have never met a vegan who lived in a rural community for any extended period of time, because if you believe that avoiding what they call “animal products” means that you’re living “cruelty free” or even “cruelty-minimized”, you have no idea how the environment works or how food, clothing and other items are actually produced. Vegans who move into the country to be close to nature typically stop being vegan within a few years, and start focusing more on cruel farming practices and the environment. The flower and the bee are one organism; without the bee, there is no flower and without the flower there is no bee.
You are comparing accidental harm, with deliberately causing harm by stealing bees’ labor and food.
In what way can u call it accidental harm? They use machines to harvest vegetables for their own consumption and knowing that dozens of creatures are living in the field they still destroy their homes. Thats much worse than just taking some honey or bee wax from bees. It is in no way accidental harm because they could have chosen not to do it with machines.
80% of the crops thus harvested are used to feed the animals meat eaters eat! To reduce the accidental deaths of insects and small animals, the best step to take is to GO VEGAN! Vegans use about far LESS cropland because we do not wastefully pass our food first through the bodies of farmed animals.
To produce one pound of meat requires feeding the animal 12 pounds of plants!
That might be the case for now. If we all suddenly stop eating meat, what do u think would be the outcome? People will start to crave carbs such as rice, oatmeal, potatoes etc. because they can start to eat more of these due to the lack of meat. Therefore, more land is required to make more food. It could even turn out to be worse lol If i woukd go vegan, 80% of my diet will be carbs only because i will never be satisfied with vegetables
Vegetables are carbs you gimp.
Low carb boring food. The carbs in plants are so low they can barely satisfy me. I want starchy oily fried stuff if i have to skip meat :p Not for the sake of the world or any living creature but just to keep me happy regardless of health
80% of crops are harvested – with machines – to feed to the animals we eat.
I’m normally a vegetarian but trying my hand in being a vegan , now the biggest problem was my love of eggs but I have done it and it’s fine but HOLY honey I have used honey for my sugar for over 4 years Im a little upset about the honey
Ya know, if the only thing that keeps you from being vegan is honey, than give up all animal foods but honey. Or try agave nectar, which is just as sweet (if a bit less viscous) and made from plants.
I love agave nectar! (My favorite is called tequila.)
Bees deserve your effort. They work so hard to have the honey for the winter months. They make the honey for them not for us. Try other sources of sweetness. Agave, stevia, sugar cane …
There’s no need to deprive yourself of sweetness, there are alternatives – bee free honey (made from apples), maple syrup, corn syrup, date syrup, stevia (plant). coconut nectar, barley malt syrup, brown rice syrup, molasses – too may to mention. Well done for looking at veganism x
“Until you go vegan, nothing changes. Once you go vegan, everything changes.”
I always encourage people to go vegan. That means eschewing honey.
Yet, they will syill not be vegans!
Exactly. And soon, no meat lover is going to have to choose between utter cruelty, tasty satisfaction and morality, because they’re going to be able to extract one single cell from an animal and grow the meat from that. So maybe it’s going to happen seamlessly without any bursting of the bubble, or tearing down of the dissociative wall that helps these people stay comfortable. I almost think all the murderous thoughts of depopulation are a closed minded ignorant solution made up by folks who can’t imagine any solution at all, pessimistic, faithless people who feel they know all there is to know. I think it’s the devils ultimatum that Kissinger and these other dinosaurs subscribe to. That’s my hope, I think it’s true. Then the vegans will be called reactionaries, going off over nothing, after the danger has subsided, and the world will continue to go around and a fucking round. That’s the way life is. It’s a gas light.
I think that if you buy honey from farmers markets you are helping bees in a way, because those small farmers tend to love their bees and they are helping keep bee population up when colony collapse is such a problem. Who can deny that the almond industry is WAY more harmful to bees than small honey farmers. I don’t buy groceries with honey as an ingredient but will buy local honey
I see your points–yes, all of them.
I don’t really view Veganism as “perfection”. I’m all for being gentle with people and not completely overwhelming them with information. The idea “a little bit goes a long way” is often true when I’ve looked to help people find their biggest, truest hearts and live their lives as compassionately as they possibly can at every moment. Thus far this method has worked well for me! That being said I personally don’t consume honey based on my vegan ethics. Perhaps another person feels it’s suitable to do so, but that person isn’t me. I will share whatever information I have and my viewpoints, and I expect nothing more nor anything less of others than for them to do exactly that. I know that I strive to push my limits when it comes to my ethics, and to question myself often and to act with tremendous integrity as my knowledge grows. And boy does it ever grow: it grows in leaps, and it grows in tremendous bounds.
Personally, I’d encourage everyone to nourish and care for bees and all life, and for me this means never taking what they’ve worked so hard for. I suppose someone could argue that bees are Zen masters and practice non-attachment, making them impenetrable to another being taking what they’ve worked for. Despite my spiritual inclinations I’m not terribly convinced of this to the point that I would take honey, propolis or anything else they’ve made to sustain themselves and their hive. Instead I’d also practice non-attachment, thus looking elsewhere for what I believe the bees offer which I am convinced that I need enough in order to take it from them
Cheers, gents. Thanks for keeping people thinking, you do it with such voracious style. <3Aubrie
I see what you guys are saying, and I don’t love presenting more obstacles to potential vegans out there, but as many other commenters have said: people need to know more about bees and if we can open up that discussion, that’s one more person educated. I don’t think a person who is actually seriously committed to veganism would just decide to eat a steak because they feel like they can’t avoid honey… I remember I questioned the honey thing too back when I went vegan and I had my mind blown by the information I learned. If honeybees go down, we are all dead anyway.
Declaring an animal product as vegan doesn’t just magically make it vegan. If they want to be called vegan, then they should be full vegan. If honey becomes the deciding factor for people becoming vegan then they are obviously just looking for the title without making a sacrifice. It’s like people who say they are vegetarian but eat fish. Those people confuse the rest of the population and then these animals aren’t viewed as animals anymore. I’m not going to change the definition of what it means for a food product to be vegan or vegetarian just to please people looking for a title without commitment. We should instead me teaching people why these products AREN’T vegan instead of confusing them with false information.
Why are you trying to make veganism into a special club? How does that help animals? The animals don’t need us to define the word “vegan.” They need us to be effective.
While I do understand the logic being used in the video, I just don’t believe that there are people out there thinking, “I’ll become vegan if I can eat honey, otherwise I’m still gonna keep eating meat”. The discussion is between vegans and vegetarians, and you can see proof of this in all of the comments.
While I’ve never thought of veganism as a “club” (I just view is as a clearly defined diet) you could say that people do view it as one—that is the only reason this discussion is happening in the first place. As I said before, the argument is between vegans and vegetarians wanting to be called vegans, but if you want to be vegan then stop eating one more food item—it’s as simple as that. And it honestly shouldn’t be a big deal anyway because this particular item is mostly (and probably sparingly) used as an indulgence anyway.
I do believe that labeling food and talking about it factually is the only effective way in protecting animals, and also the only way to stop these debates from happening in the first place. Otherwise, it leads to vegans telling their friends they can eat honey and vegetarians saying they can eat fish, so then these new people switch over their diets (if it can even be called switching since they aren’t actually actually cutting out the things that they are supposed to) and these animals continue to be harmed because everyone thinks it’s ok to eat them and the stuff they make. Then we’ll announce, “oh by the way, these foods aren’t vegan or vegetarian so please stop eating them” and then there will just be another debate about it like this one.
This false labeling also causes confusion amongst the people that are actually making our food. I shouldn’t have to go to restaurants and educate a server on what constitutes as vegan. Vegetarians (and even vegans, actually) shouldn’t have to continuously let people know that no, they don’t eat fish. This flexitarian mentality causes widespread confusion and that’s what actually needs to stop if we want to save animals.
I had a non-vegan say to me once when I was talking about veganism with him that he “draws the line at honey.” This was said as he was eating a lamb-burger. You are bang-on, Eric. Being “allowed” to eat honey ain’t gonna make non-vegans go vegan.
How is veganism a “club”?! It’s a word, with an actual meaning. It’s not a “club” and it’s not “elitist”. How can we be “effective” when people like you keep clouding the issues by focusing on stupid things like this?
I’m not sure if this is directed towards me or Vegan Bros. I don’t think of veganism as a club. However, the people arguing that honey is vegan sure do. Most of the people in favour of calling honey vegan are people that probably do eat a majority of vegan food, but they want the title without giving up those last few indulgences. I just don’t believe that meat-eaters are a part of this conversation, so the point trying to be made in this video doesn’t feel valid to me.
If vegans just stopped talking about honey or stopped provide the facts, then other “vegans” would keep eating honey and nothing would change and that is what’s actually causing harm to animals.
Definitely directed at Vegan Bros, not you. You are right in saying that the people arguing that honey is vegan sure do see veganism as a club and that meat-eaters are not likely part of that group. Even if they were, the points in the video would not be valid. Exploiting animals is either wrong or it’s not wrong. If it is, we can’t advocate for “some” exploitation for the sake of our own convenience or palate pleasure. And I agree that we can’t stop talking about honey or any other form of animal exploitation just because some people find it off-putting, annoying or inconvenient. When I said “focusing on stupid things like this”, I meant that the Vegan Bros are dredging up honey as some sort of issue and acting like it’s somehow lesser, rather than just focusing on advocating veganism, period.
It is more likely that people take steps on their way to being vegan than to instantly “become vegan” at the snap of their fingers. So do you attack someone who has decided to become vegetarian or do you praise them for the change they’ve made, then mentor them in a kind way? Lead them into veganism! There are many steps along the way. If we demand immediate perfection, fewer people will take our road and more animals will suffer.
Look in the mirror… how did you evolve? Do forget your own journey or the journey of other amazing advocates and messengers out there! GROW UP!!!!
Thanks for opening this discussion, Vegan Bros!!!
Ah, the welfarist “baby steps”, “the world won’t go vegan overnight”, etc. Please stop right now. People will go vegan however they choose–I cannot control that. What I CAN control is what I advocate for–and that should never be for anything less than veganism. I am not demanding immediate perfection, whatever the hell that even means. We can never BE perfect vegans. But we can certainly do a lot better than eating honey when there is no need to. Your kind talks about “journeys” and all that crap–veganism is not a journey where the end is being vegan. It’s the first STEP on a journey. Yes, people will trip along the way, but we need to get them to START at being vegan. We need them to acknowledge that using animals is unjust, and we help them change, but we never, ever, ever advocate for anything less than veganism. Perhaps someday you and the Vegan-ish Bros will realize this and stop telling others it’s okay to exploit animals. When you make veganism all about someone’s “personal journey”, you make it about THEM and not about the animals they are killing. That is NOT okay.
I have never once commented on a thread like this especially for the sake of disagreeing with someone but here it goes….
First off, I’m someone who is transitioning into a vegan diet after about a year of careful consideration, research, and discussion to see if this is truly a lifestyle change I want to commit to. The “hold up” has really become more of a culturally-ingrained reason for me in that I was feeling excluded with my own family and my boyfriend whom I’ve lived with for three years now. I am the sole “meal prepper” and I almost felt selfish moving into veganism because it directly affected him and his own personal eating habits. Anyways, I have decided to make the transition because it truly does resonate with me from a compassionate perspective and also from the environmental perspective.
That being said, I have been doing a lot of research on whether honey can be considered vegan or nonvegan and for me, personally, this WOULD be a determining factor on being labeled a true vegan. I cannot consume many sweeteners and sugars because of a digestive issue and I have always had success using honey as my main sweetener. I, of course, have read and seen many articles and videos on what is happening to bees everywhere (colony collapse) and I feel horrible seeing these images and reading these things. But, in the grand scheme of things, industrial farming in crop fields and the pesticides used are what are killing many of these bees. So, even the most vegan-y of the vegans is in part also contributing to colony collapse unless you’re only eating from your own garden and grains from a field you know the farmer personally and their ethics AND an orchard where NO bees are brought in and they just naturally go there. That has why I’ve resigned to eat as local as possible and from my backyard as much as I can, but there are still grocery items I need in which I don’t personally know what’s happening in the pollination realm there.
I attended my very first Vegan/Vegetarian meet up on Tuesday and everyone was so welcoming and kind. Almost every single person I met applauded me on my transition and they each had their own means and ways of deciding to become vegan. Not one person made any negative comments to me on the things I still consume and am trying to cut out. I would have seriously reconsidered ever meeting or talking with that group of people again if ANYONE would have talked to me in the way joyless_vegan has been talking.
I do not plan on cutting out honey. I do buy my honey from a person I know well though. I know it may not make me a “true” vegan, and there will be people who are upset with my choice, but you can’t tell me I am not helping to end suffering by following EVERY OTHER component in a vegan diet. That’s like me saying to my vegan friend who literally just eats packaged vegan meals that she’s not a true vegan because those frozen dinners are not as good as my fresh from the garden meals because hers had to be transported and who knows what had to die to get it to her grocery store.
I truly understand that adopting a vegan lifestyle affects every part of your life from the food you eat, the clothes you wear, and the make up/cosmetics you may use before going to work. I truly understand that becoming vegan means having compassion and respect for all sentient beings and trying to reduce the amount of suffering these other beings experience. And I want to be a part of that. I, however, am totally against people not showing compassion to other humans who are transitioning in their own way and are ending suffering of animals by taking the necessary steps that work for them at that time. Our common goal is to reduce suffering for EVERYONE. I don’t understand how forums like this get turned into a “who’s the better vegan?” or into this weird club feel. Why does there need to even be different labels? It is all so diminishing to the REAL cause.
……….so you would turn your back on a matter of fundamental justice for animals because you didn’t like how I spoke to you? Seriously? Then you are not going vegan for animals, and the fact that you spoke to how you were waffling because of how standing up for animals might upset your boyfriend and how you felt “selfish”……..what if your boyfriend was misogynist? What if he discriminated against women because he felt entitled to use women’s bodies however he wanted to, and he felt that women are mere things who have no rights? That would anger you, yes? And you would stand up to that, regardless of how “excluded” it made you feel, because we do what is right even if others don’t “agree” with it and get “mad” at us.
So why does that, in your mind, not hold true for animals too?
It has nothing to do with how you are spoken to by vegans. I have met plenty of feminists I don’t like buy HEY STILL FEMINIST HERE because it’s what is right.
If you shuck of veganism because of how someone speaks to you, you are not committed to animal rights to begin with.
I would never turn my back on matter of fundamental justice for animals because of how “you” personally spoke. If I was going to a meeting like I had the other day for SUPPORT I would not return if I were being ATTACKED as you have done throughout this entire thread. It has nothing to do with continuing being vegan or not. You took it personally.
I guess where I get confused most (and not just on this particular thread) is why everyone’s so hung up on LABELS??? Hipster. Flexitarian. Alpha Female. Vegan-ish. It literally doesn’t make any sense to me. Even if I continue to eat honey, I am still going to “label” myself as vegan for anyone who gives a shit. This is not something I will announce to people. I’m not wearing it as a badge to bring up every horrible thing that is happening in industrial farming. Of course, if people wanted to talk to me about it, I would be open to it. So, no, I guess I wouldn’t be a vegan from YOUR perspective JOYLESS because I won’t be going around shoving information down people’s throats and calling out all they’re working on/trying to change.
As for selfish, that is what I’m talking about with how my transition is taking a while. I, of course, want to reduce my carbon foot print and see all living being treated with care and respect. I, also, realize I have MY life and how it DIRECTLY affects the person living in my household. Luckily, he is being very supportive and learning a lot along the way, too.
As for the misogynist comment…I don’t know where that even comes from or how it is appropriate? So I won’t even entertain the idea.
and as for “shucking off veganism” I am not doing that. All I said was if there was someone like you in the group, I don’t think I would return.
Joyless sums up exactly how you must feel constantly that you actually sit and respond to every single thread on this post. I mean, who has time to spread so much negativity? Instead of replying rudely and coming up with weird anecdotal tales of “if [my] boyfriend were a misogynist….” why not say, “Hey, you know what? I’ve read some great articles on other plant based sweeteners that maybe you should try….”
I imagine you sitting at home with a microwave reheated cup of coffee still in your PJs trolling the internet to spread your doctrine.
BTW, Vegan Bros this is my first post of yours I’ve ever encountered and I’m excited to check out more from you guys as I make the transition to veganism!
It is utterly amazing how you missed every. single. point. Wow. You do you. But you aren’t vegan. Words mean things.
Words can also mean absolutely nothing. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you were concerned with MY personal choice, maybe you would direct me to some other sources, facts, or literature to help me see from your perspective. In fact, I would totally welcome it and be appreciative.
My whole point was that my transition is different, just like everyone else’s, and I also have my own set of health concerns and issues that I bring to the table just like everyone else. You couldn’t ask a Muslim to just start eating pork one day. Food is a very culturally ingrained thing and can be a hard thing to change if you’ve been eating the Standard American Diet for years and years.
BTW, You win the “Most Vegan” Award.
Words mean everything. I am not a chair; I am a human being. I am not black; I am white. I am not a man; I am a woman. See? Words mean things. Vegan has a meaning, whether you like it or not. And veganism is NOT a “personal choice”. Personal choice is what color you like or how you wear your hair today. What books you read. What shows you watch. When you eat an animal, there is a victim. Your “choice” involves their victimization, making your “choice” decidedly NOT personal.
Why would I ask a Muslim to eat pork, and what does that have to do with anything? Veganism is NOT a “transition” or “personal journey”. It’s not an end goal. You START with veganism. You make the decision that you want to end your participation in animal exploitation, and you do. You may make mistakes due to ignorance, but you START with the desire to be vegan. Being vegan is not something you “work toward”. That is a welfarist message and it doesn’t do anything for animals. It merely pacifies humans.
People like to hide behind “culturally ingrained”. Sexism and racism are “culturally ingrained” too, but do we take “baby steps” and only tell racist or sexist jokes a few days a week? No. When you realize something is wrong, you do all you can to stop doing it.
“BTW, You win the ‘Most Vegan’ Award”. What a stupid thing to say. You are either vegan or you are not. There are no degrees of veganism. Get over yourself.
Also, HONEY IS NOT VEGAN. Try any of the other sweeteners out there–your palate pleasure should not come before someone else’s right to live free of exploitation.
If you would have thoroughly read and understood what I had written, I CANNOT use certain sweeteners because of digestion issues. It has nothing to do with taste.
I did read. Then go without. You CAN live without sweeteners. It is possible.
Our common goal is NOT to “reduce suffering”. Our goal, as real, actual vegans, is to stop animal exploitation. Not make others feel better for continuing to exploit animals, needlessly.
I get that. Animal Exploitation = Animals suffering.
right, but we are not “reducing”. We are “eliminating”. The end goal is not “reduction”. The end goal is ABOLITION. It is not “strategy” to take “baby steps” because that just encourages and increases exploitation.
Unfortunately, you don’t “get it” and I doubt you ever will.
Too judgmental, ignored.
No intellectual content.
Even longer, and still didn’t read.
So, cover your ears, cover your eyes, and prevent any information from enlightening you.🙈🙉🙊
Vegans simply promote veganism. It isn’t a journey. It isn’t a club. It isn’t a diet.
It is a justice movement and a philosophy aimed at freeing the other animals from human dominion/ subjugation/ USE.
Much too long, didn’t read.
There are remedial reading classes available for adults, too. Such a class may make reading several sentences easier for you!
Joyless needs a life whatever you can do to save an animals life is important, we need to stick to the main point that our society is so fascinated with meat consumption that we trivialize “chicken legs” without a second thought. Honey or no honey…lets do what we can to slow down our consumption of animal products with the goal of saving lives. That’s what’s important not a strange cat lady ranting on social media.
Joyless is a troll. Isn’t it clear by now? Probably the Vegan Bros, whose article I enjoyed, are posting as it just to stir up a “conversation” by playing devil’s advocate as polar opposite to their own, powerful points.
LOL, hey it’s the internet!
Joyless Vegan is engaging in a discussion with the aim of clarifying what veganism is, to those who confuse the movement with animal welfarism.
Too long, didn’t read.
Yes, they need us to effectively stop using them. That’s what the other animals need. They don’t need anyone making excuses for animal exploitation.
I think the definition of vegan needs to be reconsidered if it doesn’t include honey. Again, we’re “exploiting” insects every time we raise plants. There’s no avoiding killing a lot of them when food is harvested. It is a sad fact. And I’m not arguing this because I want to eat honey. I can’t eat honey and I still think the vegan community needs to be a bit more reasonable. If we really care about helping animals, we need to stop being unreasonable and hypocritical.
I agree with your points, except one when it comes to framing the narrative.
There is no “vegan community.” There are just sad individuals like Joyless_vegan who make their own judgments and communicate (poorly) their own way.
Those are “alternative facts” as Drumph would say. Vegans don’t USE animals. We don’t deliberately choose to exploit animals. We may, though, regrettably step on an ant by accident. Buying honey is a deliberate exploitation/use of animals. Vegans don’t USE animals.
Sure you don’t. I’m sure all the clothes you wear, technology you use, and food you eat got to you with absolutely no exploitation of any kind. “Alternative facts” indeed. Pot calling kettle? Welcome to the industrialized world. We inhabit an empire built upon the exploitation of humans and other animals. Unless you’re off the grid, growing your own food, not using a mobile phone or computer, and ensuring that all the clothes you wear–fabric included–was not produced in a sweatshop, you are participating in an exploitative transaction of some kind. Whether or not you deliberately choose to do that is another debate.
………oh, yay, more “vegans” insisting that *some* animal exploitation is okay. Fab. Why couldn’t you have taken the time you used to make this video to make a video that actually educates people that animal exploitation–in ALL its forms–is WRONG?
We understand your frustration. And we agree that animal exploitation in all its forms is wrong. But if we want to end all animal exploitation as soon as possible we can’t just do whatever we think. We need to be strategic and we need to look to what scientific research says, etc. The animals are counting on us.
….what? “we agree that animal exploitation in all its forms is wrong” but we’re going to act like we’re okay with eating honey so we don’t come across as *extreme* to all those non-vegans. Number one, that’s hardly “strategic”, and number two, if it is somehow “strategic”, then I’d rather be clear and concise and uncompromising about what veganism is than to confuse the matter to non-vegans by being “strategic”. “The animals are counting on us.” Just not the bees, apparently.
What is more important to you?
a. “Being clear and concise and uncompromising about what veganism is” even if it means there will be more suffering because of it
b. doing what’s best in each situation to spare the most amount of suffering
What is more important? BEING CLEAR AND CONCISE AND UNEQUIVOCAL ABOUT WHAT VEGANISM IS. Otherwise, you are doing the animals a HUGE disservice by convoluting the message and indicating that some forms of animal exploitation are okay for the sake of human convenience. How can you not understand that?
You are stupid. More animal suffering is not better than less suffering. You just lost all the merits of your argument to vanity.
YES! My beef (yes, I said that on purpose!) with “nazi vegans” is explained in what I love to say to them… “Do you want to make a point or do you want to save animals from suffering?” Basically my way of saying what you said above.
Thanks for who you guy are! I LOVE you!!
Anytime an ideology is driven by fear, it starts to lose its credibility. We should give people the benefit of the doubt & inform them without urgency, anxiety, or pressure. VeganBros offered one extreme approach in favor of the other extreme approach. We can stick to our guns without resorting to fanaticism. It’s simply about us still being approachable, but without sacrificing our convictions. How hard can that be? I’ve had success with this, I don’t understand how we’ve gotten so divided.
“sticking to our guns” is exactly what I am advocating, and look at what the response is: “fanaticism!” “Nazi!” “extremist!” “vanity!”. Literally ALL I am saying is that if we want people to go vegan, we advocate veganism, not some watered-down, honey-eating, horse-riding bullshit excuseitarian version of it. And I am labelled “extremist”. THAT is the problem with the “animal rights” movement today–asshole welfarists and baby-steppers.
That may be the message you want to convey, but if you’d stop and see the feedback you’re getting then, clearly, it’s not what you’ve done. You can either learn from the experience or continue to beat your head on the wall, happy with each searing pain that you’re doing it for the greater good.
In other words, you’re no different than a 13th Century Catholic monk.
Like all elitists who think only their message is pure, and only their way is the “right” way, your communication and thinking skills leave no room for incremental achievements, let alone convincing others on the fence.
We’re fine with our approach. This apoplexy is yours. Too bad. One day, perhaps, you’ll wake up and wonder what perceived benefit you get from repeating your failing approach with other people all the time. Then you might get that less pain is better than more pain–for any animal, even you.
And there’s a wider issue: Why “joyless” vegan as your moniker? Out of the gate, you’re conveying what? Yeah. That. Great sales pitch! lol
Or, you’re just a troll. Either way, I’m done with you.
Slave owners considered Abolitionists to be extremists. They were wrong. You are also wrong for the same reason.
JUSTICE! Justice is not extreme.
No urgency? If you were another species you would consider your very life a matter of urgency!
I’m speaking about the urgency in one’s voice. If you’re speaking in a desperate tone, then no one will listen. Speaking with the intent to create urgency is a different matter. I’ve been in sales for over a decade, and urgency is created tactfully and with a calculated approach. No one ever changed by being pushed into or bullied into it. You can get someone to respond emotionally without you yourself overeacting emotionally. You also have to make people believe it’s their idea and that they can go at their own pace. If you dictate the parameters of how they should change, then they won’t feel like they’re doing it of their own free will. There’s a certain level of intelligence that goes into persuasion techniques, and that’s why some can turn people off & away from veganism rather than help the cause.
Veganism is not just about degrees of suffering. That is the Animal Welfare Movement. They believe in using animals for human convenience but somewhat reducing the degree of misery they cause.
Vegans do not USE animals. At all!
Simply not true that vegans do not use animals at all, unless you all switched to eating wind-pollinated, self-pollinated, and hand-pollinated crops only when no one was looking. And don’t give me that “they would do it anyway”, I already rebutted that one above.
Totalitarians on both the Left and the Right never see an accommodating middle, nor are they patient with transition periods.
I remember a year ago when Chris Christie (whom I abhor) stated that he’d sign legislation that legalized gay marriage in New Jersey, even though he personally did not agree with it; he said he would do it, and did, because he realized the people of NJ differed with him on the subject.
The next day on her radio show, Rachel Maddow excoriated Christie for not being a “true believer.” You see, with all these totalitarian types, it’s not enough just to do the right thing, wholly or even incrementally. If you’re not “pure” (by their standards), you’re the enemy.
All of this is based on the implication that people think not eating honey is extreme. And most aren’t, they are actually curious to hear the reasoning. And that’s a beautiful thing, that people are now open to discussion rather than shutting us out completely. Also, people once thought not eating dairy or eggs was extreme, but that didn’t stop us from informing them did it? And to be honest, we’ve made such headway with opening the panels for questioning that we don’t have to live in fear anymore of backlash. Sure it’ll be there if we use the wrong approach, but my experience has been fairly positive. People even thank me for being eloquent and “not so self-righteous as others have been”. It’s important to be a good example of the compassion we live by. It seems almost manipulative to give a portion of the truth. Why even mention honey at all? Why not get straight to the concept of exploitation in a general sense? If we do that, they’ll soon make the connection on their own. But don’t intentionally avoid the subject out of fear. Anytime an ideology is driven by fear, it starts to lose its credibility. We should give people the benefit of the doubt & inform them without urgency, anxiety, or pressure. VeganBros offered one extreme approach in favor of the other extreme approach. We can stick to our guns without resorting to fanaticism. It’s simply about us still being approachable, but without sacrificing our convictions. How hard can that be? I’ve had success with this, I don’t understand how we’ve gotten so divided
I’m sorry, but we have to “exploit” insects all the time to raise the food we vegans eat. That is just a fact. I appreciate that you care so much about animal exploitation, but I think your concern about honey is misplaced and part of the problem with how vegans are perceived.
We are not “exploiting” bees when we benefit from pollination. That is their normal behavior. We ARE exploiting them when we steal their honey.
Okay, that’s a good point. However, it would be difficult for most vegans (and yes, others) to enjoy a healthy, varied diet without benefiting from the exploitation of other human beings and the death of countless insects. Follow a great deal of the food we eat from the grocery store to its origin and you’ll find plenty of exploitation. The original definition of veganism wasn’t about perfectionism. When that is the focus, we are rightfully perceived as being more fanatics than people who actually care about animal suffering and exploitation.
A honeybee’s “normal behaviour” is not to exist in North America at all. They were brought here to provide honey and to provide pollination for domesticated crops. If you mean the wild bees, then yes, their natural behavior is to provide pollination — for the native plants, many of which are inedible or have much lower human food value per acre than domestic crops. Replacing the native plants around the habitats of the bees with monocropping causes nutritional imbalances for the bees and it’s believed to be one of the reasons behind the decline both of the honeybee and the native bees. Animals are healthiest and happiest when they’re part of a diverse ecosystem; both honeybees and wild bees kept on a diverse permaculture farm are much better off than any kind of bee on a typical vegan monocrop farm. And despite what some people will claim, you can’t do successful permaculture without animals — unless you are willing to truck in animal products from off-site.
I would much rather have you talk about if,bees are hurt or helped being raised and honey harvested, instead.
I disagree. You could apply this logic to any aspect of veganism. “Don’t talk about bone char sugar, you make us look crazy.” “Don’t talk about isinglas, you make us look crazy.” “Don’t talk about riding horses, you make…” Etc.
I’m a Vegan, and I keep bees. You know what I take from those bees? Not a damn thing.
Sorry vegan bro’s, you are dead wrong on this one.
Thank you. You have shown that you can assist bees, without stealing from them. They help us inadvertantly, but greatly, by their natural work of pollinating. Isn’t that enough to be grateful for? We don’t need to steal the fruits their labor.
As a bee keeper, whose only hives were obtained by bringing a hive/colony home because the bees were going to be sprayed and destroyed by the home owner if I did not do a “live bee rescue”, I do not think the bees would mind if once a year they are asked to share SOME of their honey. I plant bee friendly plants. I keep the wax moth and ants out of their hives (wax moth and ants can wipe out a hive). I do not kill the drones, I do not medicate or feed fake food (soy patties) to my bees- they are very healthy and have a great immune system. If anything, my bees help strengthen the colonies that are created by the hives I have saved. The honey is never heated and so it is a very beneficial, living food and can be a symbiotic relationship.
You only steal a little? 👼😲
Hi, Guys. While I understand what You are saying, My objection to honey is the fact it is often cheaper (and therefore incentivized) for the honey Farmer to kill the colony each fall and replace it each spring instead of maintaining it through the winter. Change that practice and I might reconsider.
European honey bees
All I am saying is that I created Bee Free Honee (“honey” made from apples), in part to help save the bees and to reduce production demand so the bees can catch a break (dare I say, help save them?). In our demos education about our pollinators is a primary focus. So thank you for considering these beautiful guys. I love bees! But…Bee Free Honee is vegan, so everyone can stop arguing now…that is the added benefit. 🙂
Are the apple trees your honey is made from hand-pollinated?
I think it’s important to bring up honey. Firstly, if they decide not to go vegan because they have the whole truth they likely were not going to go vegan anyhow and would find some other excuse.
I don’t hear many people talking about the very distructive Impact bee keeping has on our ecosystem. A little bee 101 for those not in the know. Bees used by humans not native to where they are being introduced negatively effect the native pollinators and reduce their numbers as they are typically much more aggressive then the natives. As the populations of native pollinators decrease we become dependent on the bee keepers non-native species of bees. Which further agrivates this problem and severely impacts the natural ecosystem in this respective area. Bee keeping is only a small issue to us if we are stuck in our conditioning that does value how important their lives are to themselves and to our natural environment.
Every time someone decides to consume fewer animal products should be considered a win. Being supportive of someone who may be curious about eating a vegan diet or about cutting out animal products for even a meal every week creates less demand for animal products. So someone eating vegan 95% of time…Hell Yeah! No need to make others feel morally deficient or like an asshole because they drink a glass of milk or have a wedge of cheese one Friday. Preaching perfectionism and moral superiority doesn’t make people want to eat fewer animals…it makes people want to tell you to Fuck Off.
So, not sure if any of the people involved in this discussion are even still checking these posts, but just as a general response to the whole “95% vegan” thing… well, yeah. I consider myself “veg” meaning that I mostly eat vegan, but at times when I am eating with my family or the only food in the house is my family’s groceries or I am at a restaurant… I make some decisions I would rather not. I am recovering from a severe eating disorder, and becoming vegan has made it possible for me to love my food decisions as I know they are helping others! But, I am recovering from a severe eating disorder, so any form of restrictive eating can turn into a relapse. If my only options are “eat something with honey (OR milk/egg)” (happened this morning) or “don’t eat until dinner”, you bet your ass I am going to eat that cereal because if I want to keep this fight going for – not just for my life but the lives of all of the critters on this planet, I need to be alive and well, and not look like I will collapse at any moment from malnutrition. How does that make people want to join the cause?
Do I think eating honey is bee exploitation? YES! Am I going to feel guilty for eating it in a situation where it is “Food with honey” or “No food”? NO! I need to nourish my body and feel NO SHAME for the food I put into it.
For me, this lifestyle is about minimizing negative impact on all of the lives on this planet. From the conversations below, it seems like some people think “0% vegan” and “95% vegan” are the same thing…. Well, consider the wide variety of situations people are in. If someone is able to cut out 95% of animal products, REJOICE WITH THEM! Grow up and don’t argue with them over semantics, it is really unbecoming.
Honey is not vegan – fine, great, fanfuckingtastic some people will go vegan EXCEPT they’ll keep sucking down that sweet, pre-digested bee vomit. More power to them, I guess. They’re not vegan. I guess I am not either, as I do sometimes eat things (like commercial bread from Trader Joe’s) that has honey in it. I do not buy honey and use it otherwise – maple syrup, agave syrup, raw sugar, fruit juice concentrates, there are LOTS of sweet things to use instead off honey – but honey is not vegan. Guess I should stop being a lazy piece of shit and not eat bread that could be vegan aside from the bee vomit.
Honey is the same as milk. It is food intended for the infant that is ‘stolen’ for human consumption.
“We need to be strategic and we need to look to what scientific research says, etc.” Please state your “scientific research” resources for your viewers to evaluate. Thank you!
These comments are exactly the reason I do not say I’m vegan or vegetarian. I’m a “conscious eater”. If I have 1 egg every six months because I’m in a vegan desert and will annoy the crap out of those I’m with if I don’t eat then I’m no longer vegan. If a well meaning family member buys me veggie burger for a cookout by accident I am supposed to refuse the food and insult the effort she made because those burgers just aren’t good enough. You don’t make friends (or vegans) by being an asshat. She bought those burgers with the intention of eating them too. What kind of message would I have sent if I denied her effort. She made a vegetarian meal (even the sides!) and I practically threw her a parade. Seriously. I made the biggest deal out of her effort ever – think kid went potty in the toilet for the first time level excitement.
I am eating at her house again this weekend and guess what? She made sure the got vegan burgers this time and everyone is eating them. Had I thrown a fit she would have made beef burgers and I would not have been invited. So, to answer the question at hand, honey is vegan, but, if that is the sticking point, who gives a shit? I would rather save the 100 animals a year and they still eat honey then save no animals and they still eat honey. Baby steps people. Once they give up the other stuff, if you really care, you can star gentle conversations (not lectures) about bees and honey.
I started as a ovo-vegetarian (no milk). Then I stopped eating eggs. Then I stopped eating honey. It took me six months. I may not have done it if I was surrounded by asshats who kept telling me that I am not doing enough. I still eat the occasional piece of bread and that makes me not vegan and that’s okay. I still eat thing that have sugar and dye in them and that’s okay. I have saved about 25 animals since I started this in December and I feel great about it. Eating a little egg in my bread on my otherwise vegan sandwich isn’t going to change that. Vegan purity is getting animals killed.
How do you calculate how many animals you save??? That seems very powerful…as I am almost all vegan (not going to get into the honey discussion…which is what brought me to this site in the first place), and would love to have some idea how many animals I save…it would help with not feeling so sad and discouraged by all the carnivores around me…esp with “turkey day” coming…and all the “turkey drives”…as though not having turkey to eat is somehow going to make people starve???
Newsflash: you’re not saving any animals by being vegan. You’re just ensuring that more meat goes to waste and gets thrown out while the price of it gets higher and higher. I know a family with five children who currently can’t afford meat and are being forced into veganism against their will. I can guarantee they can’t afford quinoa or a lot of the high-protein foods and all the supplements you folks eat to compensate for lack of meat, either…so those kids will eventually become malnourished and sickly without outside help. In your blind push to save those precious animals and cause huge imbalances in the food chain, you don’t even consider the negative social and economic impacts your diet has on other human beings.
That’s why vegans piss me off; the hypocrisy just dumbfounds me.
I totally feel for the family and don’t intend to dismiss your comment, but rice and beans are very cheap and a complete protein. Veganism isn’t expensive, but tasty extra fancy products are. Nutrition is something a lot of people THINK they understand because “i’ve been eating food my whole life”. If the family needs help, they could go to a library computer and learn about how to eat cheap vegan food for free.
Obviously, as a vegan myself it makes me sad when people say that vegans are dumb or whatever.
If you have time, watch the documentary Cowspiracy – it’s about what you think veganism is doing to hurt society, but its actually doing the opposite.
Well wishes and I hope any bitterness in your heart goes away because at the end of the day, anger is a wasted emotion.
You don’t need meat to live a healthy life. Contrary to what mainstream media feeds society, meat and other animal products cause more harm than good to your body. You seem to be unaware of the science of nutrition and a plant based diet. I recommend you look into it, it might help you understand more why people choose not to eat animals, from a purely nutritional perspective. “How Not To Die” by Micheal Greger is a great, comprehensive book on it.
I am a newborn vegan… as in I just decided last night to become Vegan. I saw a video on PETA’s website that showed horrible abuse to those poor farm animals. The importance of this is, just the other DAY, I was a meat-lover… I used to joke how I wanted to go on an all-meat diet, and I even tried it for a month or two! Now, I am making the Vegan choice because I had no idea that these animals are abused to this extent. I think some of you Vegans on this comment forum are losing sight of the Vegan purpose. These Bros are not wrong in their statements, and to me it seems as if they throw a lot of sarcasm and satire into their videos (which is witty and original if you ask me). Stop acting as though being a Vegan makes you better than those who eat meat.. its really almost as disturbing as the animal abuse? Just because a person wants to eat honey for a while until they get accommodated to the Vegan lifestyle does not mean that they don’t deserve to be a Vegan. The point is to stop the abuse, we are allowed to use nature to survive, so let’s not walk on egg shells over every little practicality. Be proud that you are educated and Vegan, but use this knowledge to educate others with compassion. LIKE DAMN PEOPLE.
I used to donate to PETA, I helped distribute flyers when the circus came to town, etc.
Until I learned about PETA murdering pets. To start some research, simply search “PETA + Maya”. Video surveillance caught them taking the puppy from the yard. PETA murders so many animals under the thought process of: death is better for an animal than being a pet.
I no longer support PETA, rather I support local no-kill shelters as well as a local animal rescue (that treats injuries and illnesses – to then return them to the wild in a safe environment).
PETA is not an organization that I wish to be a part of ever again. Once you start with Maya, the rabbit hole continues deeper into their practices. 🙁
I’m glad you decided to become vegan. The first thing to learn is that
Vegans don’t USE animals. Good luck and good health to you!🌼
I just posted a comment to somebody that replied to you, but I want to make sure you see something.
Please search “PETA + Maya”. They murder countless (stolen) pets as the org feels death is preferable to being a pet (oh, this also extends to service animals for the blind, companion animals, etc). They are animal murderers masquerading as animal lovers. IMO.
Nope. I don’t change my beliefs to cater to their reception when expressed to an audience. Just don’t eat honey. Don’t bitch to people about whether it’s vegan or not. Most people can’t remember if milk is a vegan menu option.
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fuck you. vegans don’t eat honey, NOR DO THEY CONDONE USING ANIMALS. you are NOT in touch with reality screwballs.. bringing honey into the discussion causes people to continue eating cows, chickens and pigs, etc??? ZERO LOGIC FOR ZERO BRAIN CELLED IDIOTS.
Banging on about honey being vegan is likely to piss people off, I agree. For that reason I don’t do it, but an unexpected thing happened to me when I went vegan: every time I am faced with a choice about whether or not to ingest something that resulted in animal pain and suffering, I SEE the pain and suffering. Honestly, sometimes I feel like John fucking Coffey!! So for me, it’s about personal choices, it’s as simple as that. I choose to avoid anything that resulted in pain and suffering, it’s called compassion. Then every meal is a triumph!
If people are curious about my choices, then I tell them without reference to their own choices (most of the time they aren’t aware they are even making a ‘choice’, because, that’s how the fucked up world is), because pushing people’s buttons, and them getting on the defensive obliterates the golden opportunity you have which just might help them think for themselves. It’s called guided discovery. If it’s done badly, you look like a pain in the arse clever-dick, but if it’s done well, you could well help someone to open their eyes, and to discover their own inherent compassion.
Keep up the good work boys!
First time commenting on your site. The ALL or NOTHING philosophy does more damage than good in promoting a vegan lifestyle. As vegans we have a responsibility in promoting the lifestyle and allow non vegans to see that its OK to live this way.
Bravo! The fact is that vegans eschew honey because a a small group of people decided it wasn’t vegan. Then, ecause people love defining themselves with labels (vegan), a lot of the vegan community just mindlessly nod their heads and equate honey to drinking “insect milk.”
You make a great point by reminding us that a lot of insects are killed when harvesting and growing our vegan food. Ideally, that wouldn’t happen, but even with organic growing techniques, you still have to deal with so-called “pests.” Let’s get real people. We really should be trying to get people to at least eat less meat, not making ourselves look like wackos. And this is coming from a vegan who couldn’t even eat honey before going vegan.
Guys, you can’t change the literal meaning of words to better suit your cause. Unless you’re Christian, of course.
FYI, a Langstroth bee hive is based a scientific formula using the “bee space” measurement as a template. google it. share the knowledge, whether you agree or not.
Well I’m new to veganism and I have to say before I even thought about honey, it seems against what being a vegan stands for. Unless – you are choosing to be a vegan for reasons other than compassion for the exploration of animals and insects (which is most of the reason why I’ve chosen this path).
I think people who may be less concerned about animals and more concerned about health may not understand why substituting say, agave for honey is a better option (for the animal kingdom).
It would be lovely if everyone lived by the path of compassion but sadly this isn’t going to happen.
So what do I think? I think people should make up their own minds and own their decision. My opinion is that honey is not vegan but if I chose to eat it – then that is my choice and I’ll have to live with the possible consequences and maybe guilt too.
So. Unlike milk, honey is a natural by product of bees. And Bees like making honey. Bees are vital to human and animal survival due to pollenation. Eating honey creates a demand for it. It creates a market for people to farm and harvest more bees, to create more honey. If no one ate honey, there would be fewer bees. And at their current rate hives are dying, and without human greed to ensure their survival who knows how long we’d live. So if you really care about animals, and the future of all species, and the flurshing of the bee population…eat the honey.
Benefits of honey:
Can promote small-scale, local, fairtrade, sustainable businesses
Can buy local, no food miles
Promote local pollination of food stuffs and wild plants (and these small businesses may promote/provide wildflower meadows etc that are good for all pollinators such as bumblebees)
Shipped halfway around the world
Industry built on human slavery and exploitation (although you can buy fairtrade)
For me, drawing lines in the sand without taking into consideration the nuances of ethics is silly and frustrating!
Also people are missing the point of this video. Shouting people down for ‘not doing enough’ to protect animals and the environment doesn’t help.
Going from eating meat (or dairy, eggs, etc) twice a day to twice a week is a bigger difference than from twice a week to never. If you really want to see lasting social change encourage people to feel they can make those steps, and applaud them when they do.
Wrong thx bye
the main reason I’m in the process of turning vegan (the reason why I’m not exactly one right now is because I live a my parents house and they’re omnivores) is to reduce my greenprint.
we actually should eat honey (and especially local, small industries’ honey) for our planet’s sake. because of the massive deforestiation and use of insecticides, the world’s bees population has decreased. studies have shown that the whole world needs pollenising insects (such as bees) to keep plants and cultures of all sorts growing. by bying honey, you’re increasing it’s demand and helping new hives to be inplanted and thus increase the bees population.
concuming honey is good for the planet.
I think you guys have a valid point; telling people everything that isn’t vegan isn’t going to help. But that doesn’t mean vegans should compromise their morals and say things ‘are’ vegan when they actually aren’t. An alternative to your proposal is to show non-vegans what is vegan – show them the positives rather than the negatives. That way there is no compromising of morals.
Also I get that bees are used in agriculture etc but for me I feel that I want to do the least damage I possibly can, but each to their own. If it works for some people, then great! Just don’t put off others because it confuses them on what being vegan actually means.
Technically no one is %100 vegan. We build a house, walk outside, ride a bike etc we kill bugs. You need a medication to save your life? Not vegan. If you really want to have hone you can have your own bee hives and only take the overflow honey they won’t use. If you just do the best you can that’s what really matters. 🙂
I like the idea of not alienating people who eat fried chicken legs, if we really want to make a change we need to teach what’s right (not eating chicken legs, or any legs for that matter) without alienating people and hoping we make an impact through education and lifestyle. My whole family of 4 is vegan and we do what we can in our small Berkeley, CA city to help spread the vegan lifestyle to the chicken leg lovers of the world. Being a true vegan means to love all living creatures.
Agreed. Priorities. Honey is a tiny issue in comparison to meat/dairy/eggs, and I’d rather have a honey-consuming vegan than a carnivore any fucking day of the week.
It’s all ’bout those baby steps, props dudes.
I say, treat it like you would an allergy. If you were with friends and one of them ordered something you were allergic to, it’s fine to not mention it. There is a place and time to make a stink, but in the middle of dinner, with friends, is not the place/time. That said; if that person then asks you to “try this”, you can then mention that and why, you don’t consume honey.
I don’t eat it, nor do I eat eggs, or drink milk, but I am not morally opposed to it, either. If someone has a goats and those goats are treated like family and one just happens to be producing more milk than her kid will drink, by all means, use it. The same goes with eggs, provided you have no rooster and your chickens are healthy/happy, eat an egg. So, I feel the same about honey, if your bees are producing far more honey than they can eat, take a little. Where I oppose it, is when it’s commercial and the animals are essentially slaves for humans and are treated inhumanely.
I gotta say, to be different and well informed, some vegans are avoiding high concentrations of pollutants which animals and insects collect…even algae collects high concentrations of chemical waste, which is why it is wise to eat chlorella grown in tanks. AND being nice to animals…but being vegan is also smart like that.
You guys are amazing! I don’t consume honey myself and it’s usually not the first thing people ask when they have questions about what I eat. (That was a long sentence…. oh well. Internet. Yeah.) I totally understand where you guys are coming from. Keep it up!
What about the humans exploited in harvesting fruits and vegetables….? if you are truly vegan, you need to stand with your mouth open and wait for random fruits and vegetables to fall into it. THAT is truly vegan. I wish you luck in your survival strategy.
It can feel frustrating in finding the answers to discovering the foods one needs to eat to be completely healthier and stronger than “meat eaters”.
Don’t give up! It’s out there!
well it would be a huge progress already if at least people where vegetarians, for the planet, animals….
but whining about eating honey?…vegans are crazy I say :’)
It’s a discussion about damaging the Eco system. Vegans are not at all crazy but very special
FUI: Factory dairy farming is worse. :/
Was that a smart watch he’s wearing?? ..Built by sum poor, under aged, kid forced into hard labor in sum illegal overseas sweatshop?? Sumhow, supporting that seems way less vegan than eating honey!! Wake up people!! Simply being ALIVE contradicts Vegan principles.. it’s a completely ridiculous concept!! “Vegans”, if u haven’t killed yourself yet.. you’re causing avoidable harm to other creatures in some form or fashion (be it to insects, bacteria, or other micro organisms) and therefore, are not vegan. You people knowingly feast on bugs, while others choose to eat chicken legs. If you truly view all living creatures as equal, there is no difference here, so stop judging people simply because they choose to eat bigger animals than you do!!
I don’t think it’s a matter of judging..
Accidental bug eating to justify intentionally killing animals , is what you said.
You do feel bad , or maybe you’re a sadist?
The plant life as food is out there!, to be healthier and stronger . It’s a beautiful thing!
Don’t feel judged , just because of the lack of knowledge.
There is no reason or benefit from eating other animals.
Start with looking at vitamins and minerals to build on.
But you don’t have the ability to remove yourself from the animal food chain, and you don’t have the ability to stop *intentionally* killing animals. That is the whole point. Veganism practiced in this way is a nonsensical purity cult. You want to say people are “weak” or “strong” based on this arbitrary metric you’ve invented, but you can’t ever live up to the standard that’s been set (to end the use, or exploitation, or suffering of animals) because the only possible way to meet this standard is to *have never been born*. So you say, well, I only want to prevent a *reasonable* and *practicable* amount of my use and exploitation and suffering of animals — but reasonable and practicable by whose standards? People who have committed suicide cause less exploitation and use and suffering for animals (in pure numbers) — is it practicable then? Omnivores who have no children cause less exploitation and use and suffering for animals than vegans who have one — so do people without children have the right to harp on you about *your* greed and sadism? People are annoyed by this style of veganism because you’ve made a purity cult and left yourself an out for your own lifestyles, but you won’t allow other people to have an out for theirs. According to the laws of veganism, someone who eats a diet of 95% plants and 5% animal products, wears leather from animals they hunted/raised themselves, keeps bees, but has no children and doesn’t own a car and lives a zero-waste lifestyle is hurting animals, but someone who lives a standard western lifestyle and has 3 kids but eats vegan fast food 3 times a day can go home with a clean conscience. It’s completely absurd.
Don’t have the ability to stop intentionally killing? No ability to remove yourself from the animal food chain? Vegan +1 omnivore +0?
Great video mother fuckers.
Honey yes or not:
Jeez guys, how hard can that be?
-IF you call your self a vegan for moral reasons, then yes, you’re awsome, you’re better than me (I guess) and by such contest, honey is not vegan.
– If you are a sociopath or simply weren’t born a vegan like me, and therefore you lack in sensitiviity and you simply decided to turn vegan after you came across scientific material from Campbell (China Study) or Valdo Vaccaro ( Italian eating Guru) then yup:
HONEY IS VEGAN.
What? Why? :
because it has not animal cells, that’s why!!! so eating that won’t feed your cancers cells.
Stop trying to push on people common sense like their have any, people adapt to the mass ideology? renowed everyday by massmedia, good luck. Psichology doesn’t like exeption I’m afraid.
You wanna make hem think? hit them were they care the most, their own body and their families. You can do all the cheesy riots you want my friends but just in case you wanna convert hem :
1 Let them aknowledge their have been eating poison since their day one and please don’t play “the vegan”.
2 work your ass off and get some cooking skill to show them how good and various we eat; how good we feel, and how finally we get to taste the true flavours of food (and look at their disgusted faces when they taste meat or fish after months with their new palate).
3 stop hiding behind your good will as excuse for not taking care of yourself: Look at you. You are stressed, skinny and weak. Is this what you want not-vegan to think of ya? You wanna save the cows? you need to convert people showing them you understand, not to repulse them boasting on how superior (therefore far away) you are.
To convert them you need to start from your ass. From now on you’ll have to be in great shape. Eating a balanced variety of the seven main types of veggies and doing some basic daily exercise. This is what a clever vegan do. Not playing donquishotte.
” But while we’re talking they beast suffer!!”. Well, I know, the society is 120% fucked up, so what?this is the shortest cut and it doesn’t involve any moral compromise. It’s actually about putting values on what you do!
So focus on the results and less on the means, you might actually enjoy the ride, change a lot of mind that won’t touch meat again and .who knows, even help us out to get google image rid of deserved vegans jokes meme.
Ya know…I wish there were totally acceptable and supported levels of veganism instead of more arguing the different sides and breeding more negativity 😔 I’ve been a vegitarian over 10 years and recently went vegan due to some horrible reality I allowed myself to be blind to. Since then I’ve been searching for a cool discussion group where everyone is curious and willing to share knowledge in a way that isn’t rude and insulting to the other person.
I eat honey and keep bees…
I think loving and becoming one with a horse is a beautiful thing…nothing uve ever done but one day I fully intend to add a horse to my family
I will be getting some chickens soon (as pets, they will spend their unproductive 15years retiring with me) and I intend to eat their eggs. I’m aware of bee vomit and chicken periods and that doesn’t gross me out…I will be around meat and not be grossed out…yet at the same time when see road kill I feel my heart twist at the sadness of people just driving by and not caring one but about that little soul that was just there…
for me it’s more of a head trip to look at everyone else and see the total disconnect between the infinite suffering that goes into animal foods and products…if people are so desensitized to human suffering…all the violence against each other…it is no surprise people don’t see the perfection and innocence of nature…i hear the jokes directed at me 😊 but you know what, my chill and knowledge bent attitude is more inviting than defensiveness and judgment…
From what you said of yourself, you are a very nice person who eats a mostly plant based diet.
But, vegans don’t USE animals.
The problem with that logic is then that milk would be vegan, cheese would be vegan, butter would vegan, and then where does it end. I understand your concern, but it is serilously misplaced. Also, do you know how honey is actually made by the bees? They consume nectar and as it goes through their “digestive” system, the excess is turned into honey and excreted. That is an animal product by any definition of the word. I would suggest that the two of you change your handle to Vegetarian Bros. and then problem solved.
In that case let’s all start drinking milk, eating cheese and go vegetarian instead, we’ll “convert” more omnivores and save more pigs.
If you’re ok with being smoked out of your home and having your food stores raided then enjoy your honey and go vegetarian.
Donald Watson who coined the word ‘vegan’ in 1944 explicitly stated that honey is NOT vegan. So why the hell are people arguing if it is vegan or not?
The following is an excerpt from the article WHY HONEY IS NOT VEGAN AND HAS NEVER BEEN VEGAN by the facebook page THE BLOODY DAIRY INDUSTRY.
On August 11, 2004, during an interview with an organization called “Vegetarians in Paradise,” Watson (94 years old at the time) mentioned that he and his vegan friends debated FOR A LONG TIME and MORE THAN ONCE whether or not honey is vegan. He said,
“I know as a propagandist that many people do not argue to reach right conclusions but to defend their interests and religious shibboleths. We did not need a committee of such people. Of course, we did not always agree on everything. We argued for a long time about whether members should sign a pledge before deciding against it. We also debated FOR A LONG TIME about the case of honey but AGAIN decided AGAINST it.”
Watson’s respect for animals of any size did not stop at bees. He also used a fork rather than a spade in his gardening to avoid killing worms and said silk, which comes from the bodies of silkworms just as honey comes from the bodies of bees, is NOT vegan, either.
So if you consume honey or use products that contain honey or its derivatives such as beeswax, royal jelly, you’re simply NOT vegan. This is a FACT that is not open to debate or discussion.
Your argument also supports eating mice/gophers/foxes/rabbits.
The cashier at Trader Joe’s asked me why honey wasn’t vegan. I told him because the global bee population is in decline and when honey is removed for industry, bees are given sugar water in its place. I said, that this was detrimental to the bee colonies, and that we really didn’t really need or benefit from it, whereas bees actually thrive on it. I also mentioned that as humans we do thrive on plant foods, such as the ones pollinated by bees and other pollinators and that it made sense to give up honey, rather than the dozens upon dozens of plant foods we would potentially be losing if the bees were gone.
What you said is true, except that is not wjat veganism is. That is animal welfare. Vegans don’t use animals. Not only we try not to hurt animals, we don’t use them.
Bros, it’s not just the honey thing that makes Vegans sound crazy.
some of the things used to fertilize the soil is definately non vegan
wait! we need bees to pollinate most all of our plants
But, we DON’T need to steal their honey!
Can you answer a question. … Is it stealing, when people use steer, or any other animal droppings for fertilizer? Should we pay the cows for their feces? Is honey from bees the same thing? I heard honey is bee crap and bee vomit, I could be wrong though. Can you please correct me if I am wrong? I appreciate your concern on the bee’s. Essentially nothing can grow if there is no life force involved.
think bees are one of or the most essential animal to keep our eco system alive
Here’s my opinion on it. I eat honey and I DO consider myself Vegan. I’m vegan for animal rights, environmental and health reasons. First off although I agree there is minimal adverse effects to bees from bee farming the benefits at this point in time in comparison far out weight them. With the mass drops in bee populations throughout the world with the absence of bee farms the loss of bee populations would be absolutely devastating. I’m talking catastrophic extinction level devastation not just too the bees but to humans and basically almost every land dwelling animal on the planet and several plants. Furthermore healthwise honey is one of the healthiest sweeteners and a far far better choice as a topical medical and beauty treatment than most products on the market both for you and the environment. Supporting bee farms is humane because of current CIRCUMSTANCES. Blindly refusing to eat honey because it comes from an animal as a vegan is counterproductive. Whenever a vegan gets mad at someone for consuming honey, I tell them if you really want to make a difference direct your anger at Monsanto not a person who’s wants a reasonable sweet treat.
Ok. I love this video because people need to hear the logic! Great politicians, revolutionaries and thinkers who have effected change on a massive scale have done it by bridging the gap between the extremes in ideology. The extremes here are “zero animal products up to and including honey”, as compared to “I eat animals at EVERY meal, and the idea of not doing so is unnatural and disgusting. This is how we are, we eat animals!”. Two very extreme ideologies. In order to move forward together, we need what is called a CRITICAL MASS EFFORT. When a critical mass of people collectively do something for the common good, it tips the scales towards positive change.
Realize, people, that in most of our DNA it is coded that we eat animals. Thousands of years we have eaten them, and I’m sorry, but you cannot easily change most peoples’ hearts and minds when their biology is screaming at them that “you must survive…kill to survive, eat flesh!” It is crazy to think that you can change that primal desire overnight, and it is counterproductive to spend time angry at those who won’t and or can’t go without meat during this lifetime. IT’S GOING TO BE OK. I personally ate burgers 2 months ago, even though I felt it was wrong (I’ve been vegetarian, vegan, and pescetarian trying to combat this meat addiction multiple times usually for a period of months). I am very proud and happy with my progress going back to a vegetarian (yes vegetarian, not completely vegan) diet. And you should be proud of me too! And proud and happy for anyone trying to adhere to a compassionate diet…because this is PROGRESS. Progress that can get us to the critical mass we need to overturn climate change and improve all life on the planet. We must be patient, grateful, and humble in these times. The more love and support you show for people who are even taking two or three days out of the week to eat vegetarian, the more encouraged they will be. And if you want to be an actually effective leader, then you must understand those you are trying to lead…and I’m sorry, but most people are not ready for veganism. Not even close. Love and support those who are making an effort, and let go of the negative emotions you have for those who aren’t…its not worth it! I recommend the book “Meat Hooked” by Marta Zaraska, where she explores our obsession with meat eating. Be blessed and bridge that gap, people!
i’m vegan for my health not for the fucking animals, honey is better for me than refined sugars,so i eat it. it contains no animal protein therefore its vegan………..END OF REPORT!!!!!!
You are eating plant based diet. You are not a vegan. Not eating pork does not make one a Jew, right?
I dont see u guys complaining about the houses u live in or ur friends and family for all the wild life that was destroyed and killed to make those homes, the clothes u wear, ur products that u use…vegans and most ppl r just a bunch of hypocrits… Its ok here but, not there…ur using a device that records and do u have ne idea what takes place for the materials to make that device or over time what we’ve done to the environment to evolve our devices to create that one u use….plz tell me again how u care so, much and how ur better than ne one else…
So, because we cannot end all harm, should we not even try to avoid deliberate harm?
The harm you are doing is still deliberate, it’s just more convenient for you to pretend that it’s not. Most of the time it’s for completely unnecessary luxuries as well. If you don’t understand that using resources you don’t need to causes harm to animals then you are not just deliberate but deliberately obtuse.
agree you guys are awesome…
All animal products contain cholesterol, but honey doesn’t. What does that mean?
That you were wrong about all animal products containing cholesterol? 😉
This is absolutely ridiculous. The population of bees is plummeting, and they are essential for plant growth. The best way to keep their species thriving is to make it economically feasible for people to grow and house bees, which cross pollinate a large swath of the region around them. How better to do this than harvest their all natural honey for monetary gain? This is one of the best mutualistic relationships in nature: Humans profit from the bees’ honey, they get to enjoy the delicious honey, the plant life profits from the bees pollination, and the bees profit by having a sanctuary that’s highly conducive to their decimated species’ reproduction. Are you seriously worried about hurting the bees feelings for taking the honey they worked so hard for? That’s literally the definition of delusional. Veganism has gone off the deep end. Pragmatism over principles people.
Treat all living things with kindness. They are not treated kindly, We are steeling the bees food for winter therefore bees are dying, bees are an endangered species and do so much for the environment. Personally I don’t believe we should be eating honey, vegan, vegetarian or none vegan/vegetarian but that is my personal opinion
The amount of different sweeteners available to the general public is insane and the only reason we see honey is that people who make it be it corporate or small based home business they can charge a lot for it and people still buy it the whole supply and demand is huge nothing on the market can give the unique flavor of bee vomit strange but that is what your consuming. Sadly it is also in a lot of processed foods making finding vegan alternatives even harder which sucks. Do not get me wrong before becoming vegan and also being a chef honey is awesome and very versatile however realizing the reality of taking an animals food source is just wrong when we have alternatives. We as society just need to stop fueling the animal exploitation of this world use products that do not harm any animals agave, stevia, raw sugar, sugar cane, Splenda, etc.
Don’t forget maple syrup!🍯 Hmmmmm.
Can we get back to the original point.
Collecting honey does not harm bees, if ONLY the surplus is collected. If the surplus was not collected it can cause swarming [over population] in the hive.
A good, responsible bee keeper, will always leave enough honey in the hive, for the bees’ requirements, otherwise they would die, over the Winter.
Bees produce honey as food stores for the hive during the long months
of winter when flowers aren’t blooming and therefore little or no
nectar is available to them. European honey bees, genus Apis
Mellifera, produce such an abundance of honey, far more than the hive
can eat, that humans can harvest the excess.
However did bees exist before humans began stealing their honey? If I steal just SOME of your money would that be OK?
If you want to say you’re honest, you don’t steal.
If you want to say you’re vegan, you don’t USE animals.
Honeybees did not exist in North America before beekeepers and they would die without them.
Its about intention. If I intentionally buy or harvest honey – its cruel. If I am doing my best to be a conscious compassionate eater and eat vegan (even though there may be bugs, insects etc killed in the processing of plants) my intention is not to harm these bugs, its to NOT support “animal farms” whether it be cows, bees pigs etc.
err you 2 are stupid, honey is not bee vomit “The bees collects the nectar from flowers (a plant) using its long proboscis and store it in its special stomach or honey stomach separate from its true stomach for digestion. when he uses the honey he basically just spits it out so to speak it is just honey not vomit no spit and bees are not killed in the process intentionally tho sometimes bees can be killed accidentally but then again we can step on a bee and kill it unintentionally. and as for eggs and dairy the not all dairy farms and egg farms kill there animals when they don’t produce to there liking and so this is just a bs reason not to eat eggs and dairy and honey and for that matter i don’t know how people can justify eating vegan to save an animals life but are okay with killing plants which are living things as well.
Sadly, you have just made a bunch of false statements based on ignorance of animal agriculture. Watch the videos Cowspiracy, and Earthlings.
Do people really think insects have feelings? Theyre like tiny robots.
Scientific studies show that insects do feel pain and are aware of themselves. Even hive creatures are not automatons.
Putting aside ethical reasons other people give to why honey IS NOT vegan, it is also NOT vegan by definition. Bees swallow the flower pollen and then sort of puke it back. By definition THIS IS AN ANIMAL PRODUCT BECAUSE THE BEES FORM IT INSIDE THEM AND THE FINAL PRODUCT CONTAINS BEE SECRETION WHICH IS A PRODUCT DERIVED DIRECTLY FROM ANIMALS. Stop trying to make videos and posts with wrong information because you wrongly inform the ignorant, of this matter, people!
What about crops that use commercial bees for pollination? Should one avoid them, is it possible?
Ignoring honey doesn’t change it’s vegan status. Something is either vegan or not. Redefining vegan – that changes everything. Extreme definitions would have you die of malnutrition since virtually everything in the world is at least influenced by the work of microbes, insects, or higher animals. Less stringent definitions allow for using ‘symbiotic’ over ‘exploitation’. And so the scale slides. Let them eat honey! The bees might not like it, but the chickens will benefit from having a new vegan giving up eggs! Let them eat cake! How many insects and animals were displaced and died in the production of wheat and sugar? (Let’s not talk about bone char used in cane sugar production.)
Bottom line is, likely NOBODY is vegan by some definitions, so perhaps we should allow for “Vegan-aware” as a classification of lifestyle and diet choice. “I know the source and effects of what I’m eating, and I choose more good than harm, and that’s better than nothing.”
Problem is, Vegan already has several definitions (dietary and many brands of ethical), and within those broader definitions, individual vegans have different interpretations. For example, I know two vegans who happily swallow. Well, know for certain. Which would seem to contradict the broadest dietary definition, but be fine with most ethical standpoints. Yet most (if not pretty much all) vegans wouldn’t countenance vivisection, despite it being a non-dietary issue. You see my point?
Try Watson’s definition of veganism. He coined the term.
And thus the first of several homonyms. I’d even wager that the dietary definition is more frequent in common parlance, and more widely known in general. That said, I do see how it can become irksome. I’ve heard people say they were vegetarian then order fish. In the UK this is depressingly common. Because fish = vegetables, obviously… #palmface
Anyway, I digress. To a typical vegan, a vegan is someone who is ethically opposed to the use of animals, in whole or in part, as commodities. But that doesn’t escape the fact that vegan is also used near universally, and acknowledged by most English dictionaries as such, to mean someone who follows a vegan diet.
It may be seen as a corruption, but that’s just how language evolves. For example, we use coke as a generic term for what the Coke Cola company would rather you termed cola. But no one has ever asked for a Whisky and Cola except as a bet. While if you asked Tony Montana for whisky and coke, you’d get the first in a glass and the second on a mirror.
We can avoid all DELIBERATE use of animals.
so If vegans dont eat honey bc of bee labor, why eat vegetables from fields ployed by animals?
Deliberate exploitation vs. accidental harm.
Is there a difference between my accidentally stepping on your toe, and deliberately kicking you in the shin? Of course! The first was an accident! Jees!!!
At what point does it stop being accidental? You know animals are still being used and you still continue. If you think it’s wrong, you should stop. If you want to compare it to stepping on someone’s foot — if you step on my foot and I tell you so, and you say, “well it’s an accident” but *continue to step on my foot* then you are as much of a dickhead as the shin-kicker, probably more because you’re being smarmy about it.
From your perspective, it would seem that it would be okay for someone to eat honey so long as they weren’t aware originally that it came from bees. Since that would have been an accident, and for some reason you don’t need to stop once you’ve learned the truth. Therefore I suppose anyone who first ate honey as a toddler or a small child is off the hook.
I believe we should stand all the way with our beliefs, half way through seem conflicted an dishonest to me.
So, since insects are killed for my bananas, then it’s okay to kill bees for honey, that was the first part of your argument. Second, don’t tell non-vegans that honey isn’t vegan because it will scare them away. Either way: Honey isn’t vegan.
I agree. I’ve been a strict vegan since 1992, but I eat local honey, harvested by people I know personally who respect and love their bees. I am actually thinking about taking up bee keeping myself, so I can even further assure that the honey I eat, which has AMAZING medicinal properties, is humanely harvested, and no bees were harmed. Honey CAN be vegan-friendly…leather, fried chicken, steak, pork chops, gelatin, animal milk, and all other forms of cruel animal exploitation and murder are NOT.
Vegans don’t USE animals.
you are trying to change the definition of “vegan”. Not going to fly, no matter what you think. Honey is not vegan.
Honey is a substance produced by bees, also known as ‘bee vomit’. It is an animal product.
This is a very simple fact (backed up by science), and because of that, it is not vegan.
As a vegan, I do understand that some animals unfortunately get killed in the production and transportation of plant based foods… however, that is because humanity stupidly uses outdated methods of food cultivation (agriculture), as opposed to localized fully automated vertical farms that implement hydroponics and airponics (all of which was doable since the 1970 ies) which wouldn’t depend on external weather conditions or bees at all… and, the amount of land animals that die because they are intentionally bred for industrial use and eventual consumption is far higher… close to 70 billion annually, rising to approximately a trillion animals killed annually when you take into account marine animals that are caught for eventual industrial use and consumption as well.
The point of being vegan is to reduce overall animal exploitation and suffering as much as you can from within the current system – obviously some trade-offs will exist, but this is not because people are hypocritical… it is because we live in a system that is based on exploitation and use of animals.
The environmental and health benefits of going vegan (both backed up by clinical trials which also confirmed some time ago that the humans are herbivores) are a bonus.
I am sure all the animals killed by habitat loss and pollution and accidents in the open-pit mines and refineries and factories and transport networks required to build these fully-automated vertical farms will be ecstatic. I can’t believe there are people who believe that building a closed-off little box with artificial lights and artificial pollination is more resource-efficient or better for the environment than directly using the SUN and the BEES. Please go do an end-to-end calculation of actual energy use and land footprint requirements of this enterprise because you seem to think lighting systems and, what, artificial pollinator drones (which do not exist yet by the way, let alone since the 1970s) pop out of the ether. Current designs for vertical microfarms also aren’t suitable for growing much other than greens and herbs. You can grow other things in them but the yields aren’t enough to qualify it as anything more than a gimmick, even just looking at monetary cost and not environmental cost (which is higher than “outdated” forms of agriculture even for the greens, for the aforementioned reasons).
You do realise that these fully autmated vertical farming systems would be built in cities that already exist and areas that are not in use?
My word, there’s a tremendous amount of wasted space in cities already, and the resources exist in those cities to build the said structures along with the landfills (there is 0 need to extract fresh raw materials from the Earth).
And yes, fully automated vertical farming systems WOULD be far more efficient at producing higher crop yields all year round and faster because it would be done under more controlled conditions.
As opposed to using soil and ridiculous amount of land space… you can build 1 vertical farm the size 1 acre and 44 stories high that uses hydroponics in combination with omega gardens which force crops to fight against gravity and grow up to 5x faster (and also produce much more nutrients as a result).
These systems would NOT require soil, pesticides, chemicals or GMO, and would use 99% less water than regular farming systems.
So, you save on land space, and overall resources in the long run.
Perhaps you should study a bit more engineering and science before you discard this.
I find it incredulous that people still advocate for outdated methods which require a large footprint on Earth in the 21st century, when we developed far superior approaches over 40 years ago.
I don’t understand why someone would feel being deprived of honey is such a big deal and that alone would prevent them from taking the ethical cause of veganism seriously. A bee is small so that makes it a less significant bee-ing ? (Sorry, couldn’t resist.) But what about a whole colony of creatures, these bees ? Someone long ago, lost to history, discovered one day that honey is tasty. So what ? If you can learn to eat something, you can learn to un-eat something. Every day people are discovering new ways to combine ingredients, foods into new taste sensations. Nobody should claim they’re going to “die” from lack of ANYTHING. There’s no shortage of food choices around, the whole deprivation thing is ridiculous. If you’re literally starving to death like emaciated children in Africa, then yeah, you are TRULY deprived. Because you have limited or no access to food so that your body wastes away, you get sick and you actually die. But if you can go shopping at any of a myriad of stores that surround you and eat any single time you are hungry, and eat as much as you want, you don’t know what deprivation is. So I acknowledge that honey not being vegan isn’t the best avenue into teaching someone about veganism. That’s only because of the warped perspective people have and the utterly egotistically indulgent way people approach food, cooking, dining, these days. Experimentation and gluttony are considered the highest ideals, so much so now that people have even taken to eating creatures while they are still alive on the plate. But neither can the issue of bees and THEIR honey be hidden away like it’s an annoying little detail that could lose vegans a sale into the community. If you learn empathy for ALL species, that includes bees and insects too, in pursuit of minimizing harm and exploitation. Teach people compassion and empathy for mammals first works better but they need to come around and give the same consideration for insects as well.
Aim low, hit lower, boys.
Here’s something to consider. Not all honey is the same. I eat tons and have never robbed it from my bees. Sadly, colonies die, most of the time with loads of honey stores. I could leave it to the ants and wax moths, but why? I save some for next year’s bees and the rest brings great joy to me and those I love.
I personally don’t agree with the anti-honey vegan argument, though honey is technically produced “by bees, for bees” AND there are a number of other ways for us to get “sweet” in our diets from plants; because bees do do much of the toiling for us to eat our precious plant foods. For instance, there are colonies that are trucked in to almond orchards and the bees are allowed to collect pollen and pollinate the trees, while subsequently trying to avoid the pesticide sprays that are supposed to happen at night (when the bees are asleep) but often overlap, or there isn’t sufficient time passed before the bees are picking that up on themselves. Mass Ag production is as big a problem as many other things and it’s too bad that so much information is so hidden or muddied so that the consumer doesn’t know nearly anything about what’s going on with their food.
So… Thanks for posting this guys. I am seriously about to go from omnivore to vegan over the next 6 weeks and honey is kinda a touchy subject for me. I seriously agree with your argument and talk to my friends who are already Vegan about the need to be inclusive and allow people to adjust to all of the new information and the lifestyle in general. I was about to freak out about the honey thing a bit, just because I’m all ready so willing to cut out pretty much everything else I’m used to consuming, but honey just seems like a lot for me as a noob. I also consider how I want to get other people to go vegan as well, and can see how it would make them think I’m crazy if I told them they can’t consume honey. I think it will be easy after getting used to adding all the other delicious vegan options to ones diet, to later give up honey as well, but I think mentioning it as a main point to people in the beginning will scare people off by making them feel as if they are going to be heading into a black whole with no end.
Well the jainism of India, one of the world 🌏 oldest religion they don’t use pesticides and are not allowed to work in pesticide industry… This would sure minimize the death of insects!! I know I hate it when I order Orange juice and im served a sugar cordial flavored water instead of real juice, so I can understand the vegans being against swapping bees real food for sugar. But, you’re right it’s a lot less awful than being factory farmed!!! Either approach is cool… Some people are ready for more awareness while some people are just waking up
REALLY? YOU GUYS SHOULD HAVE DONE YOUR HOMEWORK. VERY WRONG.
Vegans, like me, who do it for the sake of not hurting any living thing/animals, do not eat honey because the queen is either stripped of her wings or her wings are clipped and then placed into a different colony when the one she’s in has reached maximum honey-making potential, (along with several of her protector bees). Thereafter her protectors are killed in the new colony, she is raped by the other male bees and more honey is made. Why contribute to this sickness/evil? It’s human thought out torture for the greed of the belly/wallet and is unnecessarily contributing to the suffering of a living bee-ing. 😉
I don’t have anything against vegans as long as they don’t force their beliefs on me. I eat a lot of meat, to be honest. I eat it because it is a good source of protein and it is still tasty. You might wonder why I’m here. I’m here to tell all those who are hating on omnivores to stop it. And to stop forcing your decisions onto us. I’ve read the facts and it is insane how much resources we put into breeding animals and feeding them. But I still want to eat meat because apparently if the whole world were to go vegan and we didn’t allow animals to eat in our (limited) farmlands, it would take not much less resources than if went omnivorous. And besides that if humans were born to be vegan than why do I find a slice of turkey sooooooooooooooo tempting.
P.S I have killed animals that I needed to eat like chickens etc.
Just a comment, If vegans don’t eat honey, then would that mean you don’t eat apples, mangos, black eye peas, cucumbers and many other fruits and vegetables that are pollinated by bees etc. You draw the line at honey, but what about the other food that needs the bees? I am confused, I admire you saving animals but it seems as though most of you contradict yourselves and you don’t agree on many things. To many, you are insane. I want to understand your plight and start the process one day but this is kinda crazy. Where do you REALLY draw the line?
No disrespect, just trying to understand your reasoning, especially on this honey situation. These bees pollinate a lot of food you may eat. This is beyond honey. You kind of understand where I am coming from. I think you are still awesome though. Good day to you.
it’s a myth that a vegan shouldn’t eat honey …
vegans used to eat honey daily and bees love making honey and these bees wouldn’t exist if I didn’t farm them..
I keep bees 🐝 and I’m a strict vegan and honey Is close to nature as you can get without bees 🐝 most of the food we vegans eat wouldn’t exist without Bees..
My bees fly around daily and I only lost 20% of my bees last year which is low because I love my bees 🐝…
Most of the people in the comments have been victims of propaganda from the honey industry. Honeybees aren’t native to the Americas, nor are they native to most of the world. Africa and the Middle East are most likely the original home of honeybees. If every colony in America disappeared, it would simply be nature removing an exotic species brought by man. Also, honeybees are not the primary source of pollination, they aren’t even significant pollinators. Pollination occurs primarily by wind, then by insects in general, most of which is done by flies. Flies, wasps, hornets, ants, other types of bees, and every other nectar drinking animal outnumber honeybees over 100:1. Those other insects aren’t decreasing in number at all.
Besides all of that, the number of colonies plummeted after the 50s, because the number of people keeping bees went down significantly. Then when the bees in some areas started to exhibit African behavior (killer bees,) even fewer colonies were maintained. Additionally, since the killer bee scare started more and more people have been killing bees rather than calling beekeepers out of fear. The propaganda started shortly after the introduction of Africanized bees in America, which is no coincidence, it’s the result of honeybee farmers trying to prevent the killing of bee colonies they can use for profit, and to increase the amount of taxpayer money that beekeepers can receive through subsidies.
Different crops require different types of pollination, and different types of pollinators. Flowers that evolved to support wind pollination look very different from flowers that evolved to support insect pollination, so different in fact that most people do not think of them as flowers. Wheat, barley, oats, and corn are all wind-pollinated flowers, and those are very plentiful crops in the US, so it’s true that most pollination takes place by wind. But I doubt you would want to give up all insect-pollinated fruits and vegetables, since that includes almost all fruits and veg. As for your claim that most insect pollination isn’t done by honeybees would need a source, I’m afraid. I would be very amused to find my cherry trees being pollinated by ants.
This is incredibly stupid. These things are not comparable.
This rationale, which we’ve all heard, doesn’t work: Using bees for the processes of creating food for sustenance is FAR different from purposefully destroying the home and lives of creatures just to use 1/100th of their honey to make 1,000s of bottles of what we in the U.S. call honey (but isn’t actually honey and is mostly filler).
I’ve had honey twice since becoming vegan: in BOTH cases it came directly from people who kept and care for bees. They have to empty out the honey, I think, twice a year, so that the bees are able to continue living in their hive (I think you have to otherwise get another hive for them — I don’t know what they do in nature when their hive gets too full). They’re not harming the bees when they do this but *helping* them. That’s a FAR cry from the factory-made “honey” and your nonsensical explanation.
The true answer is to kill and eat human animals. There should be a human hunting season. Those who kill deer, bear, birds, etc for the “sport” of it should be forced to run through the woods during the human hunting season. Too bad it’s illegal. The meat would be rotten too so nevermind.
Cogito, ergo sum
Love U all !
Just reading these comments make me sick.
So many vegans care more about animals than other human beings. The elitism and racism within the vegan community is enough to make me and other POC sick. You all care so much about theft from bees, but don’t speak up or rally when an innocent POC is murdered by police nor do you speak up when gentrification displaces other humans.
I have traveled to other countries and no one is just going about and harming animals like the American food industry, and I will include the horrific behavior of Japanese fishermen. Many people in Asia and South America have small farms, even on their own land or in their tiny huts and they survive by nurturing animas and eating eggs, drinking milk and yes, eating honey. None of the people abuse animals like the animal abuse that exists in America. There are some small villages where just having a goat allows people to live a decent life because they can drink milk from the goat and make other edible food items with this milk.
I will not judge a person in another country based on my American perspective. We are not right. We are not the standard. We are not the judges of the world.
Most vegans I have met, read about and see in videos are egotistical, judgmental, self-appointed food gurus who think their way is THE way. It is another form of entitlement and privilege. And, since most of you are white, it is another extension of your white entitlement and white privilege. You all don’t care about other people, you only care about people who look and think like you do.
Being a vegan = crying about theft from bees, yet not being concerned when humans are displaced from their communities because of corporate greed and Yuppie/Hipster colonization aka gentrification.
Being a vegan = judging others for their right to choose how they want to live, yet not looking in the mirror and self-reflecting on your own judgmental, egotisical and selfish ways
I am amazed that all you animal loving people are so quick to hate another human being. You quickly turn on your fellow vegans with such disdain and poison oozing from your posts just because your fellow vegan has a differing opinion. You show no love for people, only edible plants and insects that can’t reciprocate your displaced affection.
I’m off to enjoy my daily tonic of garlic, honey, lemon juice and cayenne pepper. And anything else I can drizzle honey on.
The vast use of honeybees to pollinate produce is one of the least-adequately reported facts in veganism. If honey isn’t vegan, neither is almond milk, because most California almonds are pollinated by transported domesticated honeybees. And many other crops are pollinated the same way.
This still didn’t answer the question.
What I got from this is “eating honey isn’t as bad as eating a chicken leg”. So is it vegan or not?
I’m with you. I don’t consume honey. In my first year as a vegan, if honey was the 6th ingredient in a protein bar that was otherwise vegan, I didn’t sweat it much. Now, I won’t buy it. BUT…..talking about honey to non-vegans will not land with them. They’ll think we’re completely obsessive, irrational, overly sensitive and they will not relate to it at all. We need to help people relate to us. Don’t talk about honey.
Hahahah, fuck’n heard it all now. Vegans don’t eat honey, dumb fucks. Well, that leaves more for the likes of me who adores the most gorgeous of mother nature’s golden fruits. One vegan told me, “I don’t eat anything from a creature that poops” the gay bastard was happy to give his boyfriend a blowjob though! F’n hypocrites!!!
i am vegan. i eat honey.
I’ve been getting A LOT of flack from the vegan community for eating honey and quite honestly, I don’t get it. I’m not being argumentative. It’s been explained to me and I still don’t see anything wrong with it. I personally have 2 friends who harvest honey and they both have told me that no bees are harmed in the making of their honey. We had a bee hive growing up and no harm was done to the bees. Please explain. I don’t get it. Honey is so healthy for you! It’s not like I’m eating animal meat or anything.
Also, if I eat honey, can I still call myself vegan? Or is this strictly forbidden?
Fu*k, mother fu*cker, fu*ck fu*ck, is all I heard.
The bees choose to live in tight crowded hives, it’s not like we force them to live in those conditions. So that is a stupid argument.
If the reason someone chooses not to go vegan because it sounds extreme, then I don’t think they would stay vegan in the first place. I’m not too worried about the people “trying” to go vegan. I want people to adopt the lifestyle because they see that it’s the logical thing to do. Honey is not vegan technically and I don’t think this is ever going to stop someone from adopting the lifestyle or even trying to go vegan. But I’m not going to get mad at someone who is transitioning to a vegan diet, if they can’t give up regurgitated bee vomit. But I might give them shit if they have been vegan for a year and still consume that shit.
As a omnivore currently, I am looking to reduce my animal consumption especially from bad actor sources. However came here to learn how honey is viewed in a vegan light. This has been quite the journey of learning. All of your information and the opinions of your commenters (positive AND negative) helped. I have felt local honey helped my allergies to Scotch Broom. I’m loving the idea of symbiosis, and will have to look into the practices of my local bee farms. Thank You. Conversion starts with acceptance, listening, learning, and action. Keep up the educational fight!
I am a backyard beekeeper and I dont do it for the honey, i do it because bees are dying at an alarming rate. I dont “manage” my bees, I let them tell me what they need and I do my best to give it to them. What they give me, moving meditation and some surplus honey that is better than any sugar substitute or even fructose from fruit. I do not buy honey as I dont trust that it is real, raw honey and that it comes from humanely raised bees. I only eat mine and I share it with my neighbors who have eliminated perticides from their gardens and help my bees and all pollinators. Yep, it’s a brine of liquid gold.
I am not Vegan, as I eat fish, but no dairy, no other meat products, but honey will stay in my diet as am amazing gift from my girls until I no longer keep bees.
Not really worried about an insect. I just heard on the radio that bees and hornets are the #1 killer if humans. Can anyone be sure how a bee feels. I will have to dig deeper on this subject.
well i mean it’s mosquitos by a LOT man, has been for a very long time. where did you hear this?
Agree agree agree agree agree agree agree
i would subscribe if you did not need all of the profanity to get your point across. Definately limits your audience.
That hasn’t really worked out for vegetarianism has it?? % of vegetarians in US: 3.3. % of vegans in US: 6. Worrying about eating honey or isinglass doesn’t make a damn difference.
It is not even that high either, they’ve done phone-around surveys to ask self-identified vegans and vegetarians if they’ve knowingly eaten meat in the last 72h and 2/3 will say yes, and that they’re most likely to do it on a night out at the pub. LOL. I wonder how many of them are getting trashed on wine (fish bones) and beer (gelatin and casein)! I am ALL for cutting down of consumption of products that enable the suffering of animals, but “contains animal parts” is a terrible metric for animal suffering and it’s very annoying to see them draw this hard, irrational, and totally arbitrary line in the sand when they know they aren’t even following the rules themselves.
Well, as a vegan and honey farmer, I can say that my bees are not harmed at all by the harvesting of honey (they often produce much more than they need). Additionally, they live much longer than wild bees and are able to produce vast numbers of drones ( useless bees ), which means that they are producing enough honey/ sustainance to provide for the workers, the larva, and the drones. Over the winter, I make sure to leave 50+ pounds of honey for every 10-15000 bees, and I perform weekly inspections to make sure they are free of mites and disease. With my three hives, the number of pollinators does not increase at all, but increases due to my care and support. Occasionally, when they are doing exceptionally well, they will split off half a hive and start a wild swarm. All of this is standard for honey farmers to insure a healthy hive. Honey farmers increase the bee population, it’s pesticides that kill off the large numbers of bees. I’ve never even been stung, and all i wear is leather gloves and a mosquito net to keep them off of my face.
Vegans are dumb, they’re is no such thing as vegan, it is an oxymoron. The plants you eat are pollinated by bees and grown in soil nourished by animal shit. Every step you take you’re killing billions of microscopic organisms. Every day products you use are also made from animal parts.
two wrongs don’t make a right. if someone’s gnawing on a chicken leg, obviously there’s no point talking about honey. but once people are on the path, it’s important to help them unprogram their brain that’s been taught exploitation of animals (including bees) is okay. i appreciate everyone who helped me reprogram.
I have just one question, and this is a request for information, not a criticism, so chill, okay? Do vegans eat organically grown plants? And if yes, what kind of organic fertilizer do they use?
A lot don’t eat organic so they eat the same pesticide-laden bee-killing crops as people on the SAD. When they do eat organic, organic crops are usually fertilized with a mix of green manures, animal manure, residential/commercial compost waste, and that kind of thing. I have never seen an organic farm that used only “vegan” fertilizers if that’s what you are asking. Cow shit is like gold out here.
Yes, I am vegan and yes, and no, depending upon the type of honey it is, I do and do not eat honey. Let me explain. I DO eat non-commercially produced honey from small apiaries owned and operated by individuals who simply love keeping bees or do so to increase the pollination of their own small farms. This is becuase amateur bee keepers harvest their honey in an entirely diffierent way than commercial apiaries do. 1. They do not “rob their bees” by stripping their hives of honey and replacing it with sugar water. They leave enough honey behind in order to sustain the hive well into the future. 2. They do not clip the wings of their bees. They allow them to fly in and out of the hive freely in order to pollinate the area’s flowers and crops. 3. In keeping small apiaries, amateur bee keepers actually ensure the survival of bees as well as the area’s flowers, crops and trees becuase they “grow” their hives. They tend to the hives carefully, sustainably and almost lovingly becuase they know the survival and growth of the hive is dependent upon them doing so. And this growing of bees and the survival of the bee population is more important now than ever! We need bees for the pollination of many of our crops plants and crops, but unfortunately, the bee population is dying off at record rates due to commercial farmers use of pesticides and GMO crops! Without saving our bees now, there will be no crops that need pollination in the future! And it is because of this that I believe small apiaries are actually not only saving the bees the keep, but future generations of bees, as well as the plants and crops will sustain human life in the future. We need the bees for pollination, and without them, there will be less based food in the future!
No, I do not eat commercially produced honey becuase commercial apiaries DO rob their bees, stripping them of their honey and replacing it with only sugar water for sustenance. 2. They DO clip the wings of their bees. 3. They care nothing for the lives of the bees they keep, but only wish to exploit their honey making capabilities.
So there you have it, two sides of the same coin. One is a responsible, sustainable way of bee keeping and honey harvesting, the other is not.
ya’ll are just downright adorable… keep it up bros!
Who the fuck has a problem with honey but not a chicken leg? If anything, someone would have a problem with it because it’s essentially vomit, which a chicken leg is not, so they arent comparable in this situation.
Your argument is a mess. I can’t figure out why you’re claiming honey is vegan. Simply because it makes veganism more palatable to non-vegans? That’s not how it works, fellas. Vegans are fucking crazy and/or morons.
Ok first … I love you guys. I am relatively new a this vegan thing. I visited a friend in Palm Spring who is a vegan and spent 4 days rolling my eyes as he asked wait staff, cooks and even one chefs if the or that item on the menu is vegan. Then I was off to a retreat center that required a vegetarian diet 3 days before, during the 3 day event and 3 days after. I decided to just go vegan; that was over a month ago. I never even thought about honey until a sweet girl serving me some vegan soft serve offered up that the granola topping has honey in it. I’m like ” so the f**k what.” Then I realized!!! OMG the poor f**cking bees; they must be traumatized when their hive is disrupted to harvest the honey. Seriously though anytime someone professes to be anything. Someone else will be there to shoot them down. F**k the haters. I’m doing my part for the environment and for the treatment of animals and to help put an end to factory farming. I was in London a couple of weeks ago freezing my ass off (I’m from Florida) and went into a coffee shop and ordered a hot chocolate. Yeah I’m thinking it probably had milk in it. So I didn’t die, explode, go to hell, or pick up a white cip. I’m just figuring this shit out and I’m okay being human. I love the way I feel and that I am making a difference and with others hopefully affecting change. Thank you for you site. I am an advocate of the liberal use of the “f” word. My favorite quote in this video blog is “If you care about bees, you’re a f***ing awesome person” So while I’m an awesome person by that definition I sometimes opt to eat honey.
Finally some vegans that are talking sense! Most vegan’s “all or nothing” stance ends up turning more people off to veganism and makes us seem to others like we are freaks! It puts people off and doesn’t forward our cause! So instead of gaining converts we have added naysayers. If you yourself don’t want to eat honey, great….more power to you…. but bringing honey into the discussion just defeats our cause.
Good job Bros!