But if you’re not vegan, you’re probably thinking, “wait, do vegans not eat honey either? Holy shit! I knew they were fuckin crazy!”
We set the record straight in this video:
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I agree guys! Thanks for bringing this up. It does make folks feel that much more removed from the possibility of ever becoming vegan, which is very harmful to our case. Also, relative to the scale of what we are trying to tackle with the meat and dairy industry, it is not really relevant to even bring up. Most of the time it comes off as a person being “holier than thou” and that is detrimental to any argument.
……….it’s “holier than thou” to stick to a set of principles? So, I am “holier than thou” for being non-sexist, non-racist and non-heterosexist? How do you figure that, or are you racist sometimes so as not to “make folks feel removed from the possibility of ever becoming” non-racist?
Why are you so pissed, have you had your fiber today?
Actually, asking legitimate and intelligent questions doesn’t make me “pissed”, but you do you.
T. L. D. R.
See those three fingers of the same hand you’re using to point to others’ failings? Yeah, those three. They’re pointing back at you, gruber.
Good analogy. The non vegans will hate you for it.😉
So instead of educating the world and going vegan through that way you’d like us to throw the bees under the bus just to make going vegan easier for others?? How the fuck is that vegan? What if we decided that vegan bros were too much for non vegans and your hurting the whole veganism movement. What if we decide you should die just like the bees just to make others feel better. I have lost all faith and respect for you two!!
It’s not like vegans are choosing to eat honey for the sake of making more people vegan, its just about keeping quiet when you’re around people who AREN’T vegan, so that you don’t turn them off. Do your research at home so you don’t have to ask “Is there honey in this?” when you’re out in public.
I don’t completely agree. You should ask “is there honey in this” if you are unsure. For example- today I went to Whole Body and asked for something natural to prevent allergies from getting to me. Guy at counter “Bee pollen bla bla bla”. I made “the face”– he claps his hands in the most feminine way summoning “The Vegan Employee” then I was praised for my dedication that he someday hoped to achieve. Again- I don’t quite agree with Brendon either- I mean… “throwing bees under the bus”– I hope that’s sarcasm. Why? B/c they just said they don’t consume honey and they think it’s morally wrong… HOWEVER- that doesn’t mean they throw a hissy fit in public when people eat honey or go 95% Vegan .. just still eat honey.. maybe wear silk.. People don’t want to associate with the hissy fits. HOWEVER- providing educational information when inquiring minds ask.. beneficial ! Your leading by humble example– beneficial !
There’s no such thing as 95% vegan. That sounds just as ridiculous as saying 95% anti-racist. Veganism is not a broad term; there is no in between. You either are or you aren’t. “maybe wear silk.”? I think you may be confusing vegan with vegetarian. I highly suggest educating yourself on veganism.
Wait, is there really such a thing as 100% vegan?.. that is a mythical achievement we all would be striving for, achieving it when we die I suppose.
Yep. Where does my responsibility end? I have non-vegan kids. I guess I sort of failed. When I die, I achieved 0% veganism.
Well are they vegetarian?
Only a select few make it to level 5 vegan.
There’s no such thing as 95% vegan. That sounds just as ridiculous as saying 95% anti-racist. Veganism is not a broad term; there is no in between. You either are or you aren’t. “maybe wear silk.”? I think you may be confusing vegan with vegetarian. I highly suggest educating yourself on the lifestyle of veganism.
So are you saying 0% vegan and 95% vegan is the same thing?
Yes, because both are non-vegan.
I’m certain you aren’t 100% vegan.
It’s an idiot, VB. Of course, that’s what it was claiming. And hoping grubers would buy into that line of (non) thinking. LOL
Great discussion, thanks!
Some of these ppl r just trying way too hard not to allow people to be in their special club known as “vegan movement”….
They feel better about themselves knowing their diet is 100 percent perfect at all times free of animal product.
They probably go “freeganing” too. Hah
Why do all these people who do not agree with the philosophy of veganism, insist on calling themselves vegan? Is it a fashionable fad? It sure isn’t a club! Why not simply say you are trying out a plant based diet? That is a helpful change. It just isn’t veganism. Why pretend to accept a philosophy that you have not truly adopted?
I also think it’s probably because they’re trying to transition to the diet. Veganism is a philosophy, and I subscribe to many of the parts of veganism, though I myself am not vegan. I think it can also help get the idea of veganism as an extremist thing and make it more normalized. I meet lots of people who tell me they’re currently vegetarian and are transitioning to a vegan lifestyle.
But yeah, there are totally people who are like “yeah lol I’m so vegan. Let me drink my starbucks soy frap. It’s soy because I don’t want to hurt cows. BTW can I get extra whip cream?” That is so irritating to me because they literally are not doing it for the animals at, they’re just doing it for the title.
Those who are responsible for fewer animsl deaths cause fewer animal deaths.
Vegans don’t use animals.
I would think allowing somebody to move closer and closer to the movement is better than having somebody say “okay, just F’it then” Allow for the changes. Every change is better than none.
Yes, every decision we make to avoid using animals helps animals.
But, why insist on calling it veganism when it isn’t?
I have been vegan for around 5+ years. My immediate family has transitioned to being mostly vegan. Yes, I said “mostly.” I think it is great that people are making progress, and I’m not about to alienate the people who are transitioning at a different speed than I did. A hateful liberationist once went on a tirade about me saying my family was “mostly” vegan, and I shudder to think of how off-putting someone with that judgmental attitude affects the perception of vegans in general. With people like that, it isn’t about the animals, and choosing the most effective PR strategy to help them – it’s about that person and their own ego, personal purity, and anger. An integral part of animal advocacy is showing compassion to everyone, and presenting the vegan lifestyle as something people would want to be part of. Nobody is going to sign up to be nit-picked and made to feel like their efforts are meaningless.
Well said sister! I like the way you think! I am also mostly vegan. I believe this is enough. Sometimes it is hard when you go out to a party or just anywhere and I have to be able to have something. Being almost vegan just maybe as much as some people can do for the rest of their lives. It still helps a lot more than it hurts. I went grocery shopping tonight and bought everything vegan except for some Mrs. Thinster’s cookie thins. I found them in Price Chopper; never heard of these before. I also bought a pint of non-dairy chocolate fudge almond ice cream.
Oh, it’s hard? How hard is it for the animals to be used and consumed?
Veganism is not about us.
That said, eating fewer animals helps.
Am I “mostly Jewish” because I don’t eat pork? No.
Your family is thinking about becoming vegan, and are now eating a “mostly plant based” diet. Veganism is NOT a diet. It is a philosophy and a justice movement.
Hey Dogly, I’ve seen your posts over and over again, and it seems like you’re just trying to start a fight with some of these people. If you want to go out of your way to make people wrong, fine. But realize the problem many are citing of extremist vegans turning people away from removing animals from their diet and animal products from their lives is the same problem you’re perpetuating with your very speech.
actually, it’s just the opposite. we can only ever be X% vegan, never 100%.
to be 100% vegan, you wouldn’t watch fireworks, travel in most automobiles or planes, listen to violin music, use non-apple laptops/desktops/tablets/smartphones, enter a house made of plywood, and a host of other things…
Read Watson’s definition of veganism. It was quoted above. Vegans do all that is possible and practicable to aboid the use of animals.
That is all. Avoiding honey is both possible and practicable.
Why should I have to walk on eggshells & restrict myself from informing the truth? By catering to the sensitivity of those who are doing harm, I’m also implicated in that harm. Why be an enabler to appeal to their perception? If they feel uncomfortable talking or inquiring about why Honey isn’t Vegan, it’s bc they lack the critical thinking skills to examine their choices. It’s our responsibility to expose & dismantle the status quo. Gently, of course, but not blindingly. It’s not the mention of honey that’s the issue. It’s the way it’s being presented. Someone can only think it extreme if we didn’t have the proper approach in the 1st place..
Often when speaking about Veganism, I don’t even mention honey outright. I speak about exploitation in general. I ask: 1) Does the food directly interfere, impose, exploit, & harm the life of the sentient being. 2) Does it indirectly impact biodiversity & the environment? 3) Can you live without it? If you answer YES to all 3, then that food isn’t Vegan. It doesn’t work with plants because 1) While they do get exploited, they can’t sense being harmed 2) While it does impact the environment, it’s at a smaller scale than other industries. Plus we have a synergistic relationship with plants of give and take, whereas with animals it’s a symbiotic relationship of just take. 3) With no other food source available, it’s unrealistic & difficult to exclude plants as a food source.
Anytime you live in hesitancy to speak freely bc of fear of backlash, is the day you should absolve from speaking at all. Those who give up liberty for a sense of security deserve neither. Especially if what you speak of is in support of those are helpless & voiceless. No one should have to manipulate someone into Veganism. If you’re going to do it, do it right. Be honest, help people understand. Give people more credit than you give them. You’d be surprised how the majority are willing to give benefit of the doubt & hear you out. Be patient, & speak to their intelligence, not their sensibilities..
I’ll make whatever inquiries I need to make about my food. Why does that concern you?
If you are going to be truly vegan then you will need to quit eating foods that have been produced using pollination from Honeybees.
Well, if the concept behind Veganism is to not eat anything that is produced by animals or animal labor then you would have to include all fruits and almost all vegetables. This is because they are all produced using honey bee pollination.
Now you might say that honey bees do this on their own naturally. But the truth is that Honey bees are not native to the Americas and were brought here by humans specifically for the pollination that they accomplish. The apple, almond, squash ect that you eat was made possible by pollination from honey bees that were trucked to the fields so that they could pollinate the field or orchard.
Even if you are eating stuff grown in your own yard, it is pollinated by bees that would not be here if a human had not brought it here. Bees travel up to 5 miles from their hives to collect pollen and nectar. This means that the bees in my hives in my back yard have had a hand in pollinating everything in a 5 mile radius from my house. that includes anyone’s, including any vegan’s, garden.
So this is the logic behind my above statement.
Anyway, I am grateful to the bees! And will not steal their honey!
Save the bees!!!
It is Beekeepers who are working hard to help save the bees. Many of the problems facing honeybee populations are disease and parasitic problems that frankly require our intervention. Most feral (wild) colonies of bees won’t last more than two seasons because of being overwhelmed by parasites and the diseases that they carry. Beekeepers are working to find answers to the problem and it is the management of colonies that has kept the populations as high as they are today.
What type of bees do you keep?
Do you harvest all their honey?
They die in the winter?
I keep several types of Honeybees.
No i only harvest a bit from each hive so that they have plenty for themselves to get through the winter.
No they don’t all die in the winter. Although it is during winter that I have the most colony losses.
Honeybees are far from the only pollinators, though — there are thousands of native North American bee species, not to mention other species of pollinating insects, hummingbirds, and non-animal pollen vectors like the wind. It’s not just the honeybees doing all that work!
There’s also a big difference between taking a by-product that the bee doesn’t even want (fruit), and taking the stuff it has produced for itself and wants to keep. If we could just nab the excess, unneeded honey in a non-invasive manner, that would be one thing, but that’s unfortunately not how it goes down (smoke is used to disorient the bees, some get injured or killed as the hive is opened and inspected, a few sting the beekeeper and die from their innards falling out, etc.)
Pollinating is natural bee behavior. They do it for themselves and we also benefit. What is exploitive is stealing from them the fruits of their labor.
LOL… Brendan, go troll somewhere else where you might fool some people.
Someone like you sports an icon that reads “What would happen if EVERYONE CARED?” then proceeds to snarl elitist and vulgar pap. Walk your own talk before wagging your silly finger at the rest of us because your “caring” is neither caring about people skills nor caring about being effective in getting your message across by building a bridge of understanding to others who might disagree.
As Louis CK would observe, “You’re probably someone under 20 years old.”
LMAO… WTG, bro.
I eat honey from my hives and hives of other local beekeepers. All humanely raised and treated with utmost respect. We don’t disturb the hives for loads of honey, we just take small amounts when they’re packed full. Our bees love us and it’s amazing how they’re so docile every time we check our hives. As soon as they show any kind of stress we close the hive up and leave them alone for a week or so. Beekeeping is an amazing way to pollinate our fruit trees, herbs and other food plants/trees we have in our garden.
Did you not watch?
I agree, We only go into our hives for honey 1 time a year, and keep so much for the bees. e do not rob them blind ever. We also clean out any wax moth, and keep the ants off the hives. Our fruit and flowering trees help provide them with what they need, and in turn we help keep their natural predators from them. We also provide water always so they don’t have to go far to get it. It is a symbiotic relationship.
Officer, I’m not a thief. I stole some of his money, not ALL of his money!
I love your stuff.
I’ve heard people use this very argument as to why vegans shouldn’t talk too much about the fact that dairy and eggs aren’t vegan. I’ve also heard of people who have no problem eating grass-fed beef but avoid honey because of Colony Collapse Disorder, social justice (human hunger/starvation due to loss of pollinators), and other environmental reasons. Truth is, different messages speak to different people. What might frustrate/anger one person could inspire/uplift another. Vegans are a diverse group with many different opinions, and that’s okay. What’s important is that we often share the same goal…helping people think more about what they eat, and hopefully inspire them to make better choices.
I like the way you ended this comment. Better health and less pain in this world is what we need. Being conscious of what we consume is what we need. It’s a long time before the whole world will be pure and 100% cruelty free.
LOL… a very, very long time.
I dont like the term cruelty free. Animals still die in harvesting crops ect and as living people we will inevitebly cause some form of cruelty in one way or another. The point is to minimise that cruelty as much as practicable
The fact the the rest of the world may change slowly, is not a reason for us, who know better, to drag OUR feet.
Vegans don’t USE animals. Honey uses animals. Honey is not appropriate for vegans.
I’m so glad you mentioned that there are different motivations for being a vegan. I get tired of hearing that there’s only one true motive. Aaack. The world is full of different people. However they get to veganism, the fact that they are interested or even arrive — hallelujah!
There are many reasons to eat a plamt based diet.
VEGANISM is a justice movement to free the other animals from human domination.
A shame the poor plants and prokaryotes will still be under our dominion. :^(
Heartbreaking! If plants had hearts! At least we would harvest far fewer acres of the “poor” plants, and we could stop clearing the Amazon for grazing and growing cattle feed. 80% of cropland is now devoted to growing food for farmed animals.
Welp, I guess that means I can rule over starfish and jellyfish as they don’t have hearts either! :^D
A shame the poor plants will still be eaten and cut down regardless of cattle feed becuz us filthy humans still need: logging, lodging, agriculture, mineral mining, oil and dams. Gee, it’s almost as if the problem isn’t an omnivorous diet but humanity’s inefficiency at most things, or something. :^(
But that’s absurd, of course. It surely can’t be that.
Love love love xxxx
Did you not watch the video?
You are absolutely right. Exclusive, arrogant and condescending comments only harden the “enemy’s” resolve to be gore-filled fucktards…oops, did I say “gore”.
I grew up in a traditional family on a dairy farm and man did that hurt. I have been a vegan now for 23 years and I have found that people listen best to calm, non-threatening Socratic reasoning much more than shouting from a soapbox. All my years of righteous activistic rage were nothing compared to a few well thought out discussions. It comes down to people emulating others they see as strong, healthy, wealthy and hot. Pick you battles (industrialized farming vs. bee-torture…you tell me what animals the majority of gluttonous folk will identify with most), plan for the long-haul (it’s a life-time of telling the Truth, in small doses, and changing lives, one human and one animal at a time), and remember that actions and self-confidence speak volumes when weighed against words.
so, anything that you don’t personally agree with is “exclusive, arrogant and condescending”? And being clear and concise about what veganism *actually* is, is “shouting from a soapbox”? Wow. We don’t need to “pick our battles”–we need to unequivocally, clearly and consistently advocate for veganism. Talk about reasoning–try using some.
Your screen name is telling.
It was chosen deliberately. I’m not one of those rainbow and unicorn spiritual earth mother vegans, if that’s what you perceive as joyful. What brings me tremendous joy is in living consistently with my understanding that if animals matter, which they do, they we can’t exploit them because doing so harms them and we should not harm those who matter. Animals are NOT things–and it brings me great joy knowing that my way of living–consistent–is not harming animals. However, what frustrates me is the insistence of some who call themselves vegan that we should not promote the idea that animals matter because it’s just too gosh darn hard, inconvenient, or–my personal fave–divisive. That puts a serious dent in my joy, and I call it every time I see it because it causes harm to those I am seeking to keep from harm.
How do you help animals? is it through you condicending tone on social media sites? How about you list all the organizations that you think Non-Vegans should pparticipate in exit quietly.
How do you help animals? Is it through your condescending tone on social media sites? How about you list all the organizations that you think Non-Vegans should participate in to help the cause and exit this blog quietly.
i help them by not eating them, including not eating things they are used to make, like honey. This seems really obvious to me. I won’t “exit quietly” and you will not silence me. I advocate for all animals, including bees. Go eat some fiber yourself, dipshit
All vegans help by not eating them you act as if you have done something better than the rest of us. You are angry, selfish and not helping the cause in my opinion. The people you comment to with ignorant remarks and name calling like “dipshit” will silence you with compassion not only for animals and bees but for humans as well. Try kale it may help you with your attitude.
“Vegans” who eat honey or tell nonvegans it’s okay to eat honey are NOT helping “the cause”. You can think whatever you want of me, but given that you know nothing about me it doesn’t really mean much at all. I don’t need “kale” to “help me with my attitude”–what I need is for vegans to be consistent in their message to nonvegans that ALL animal use is wrong. And if you can’t wrap your mind around that concept, you’ve earned the title of “dipshit”. Have a great fiber-filled day.
If someone wants to know if a practice or prodict is vegan they need only ask themselves one single question.
Does it use animals?
If NO – Then it’s vegan.
If Yes – Then it’s not vegan.
What could be simpler?
Vegans don’t use animals.
Everyone has been calling her names, while she calmly has explained what the philosophy and justice movement that is veganism actually IS.
Dipshit is a mild rebuke after the abusive comments against Joyless Vegan.
Read what she wrote. She answered many questions asked here.
Love you guys! Unfortunately, going to have to disagree with you on this one. I think the plight of the honeybee is a huge issue with its place as a keystone species in our ecosystem. Remove honeybees and you would have widespread ecocide. I do not think it’s arrogant/crazy for us, as vegans, to say we don’t eat honey and if some one asks why to tell them the reason. I have a friend who asked why I don’t eat honey and after giving my explanation (bee population being halved in the past decade from the use of certain pesticides, beekeeping techniques that densify a colony so that contamination of bee disease is widespread, etc) they have told me “wow I didn’t realize that.” And now they are not looking at me as a crazy person but rather now they are more educated in the plight of the honeybee.
So is it neonicotoids that we should worry about? I let a beekeeper set up his boxes next to my fruit orchard. I think the bees will be even better at spreading pollen than the wind. I’m hoping the artificial ecosystem in my yard is a workaround for the damage done by chemicals.
You do realize that much of the agriculture that vegans eat relies on pollination by bees for it’s production? And that one of the main reasons that honeybees were brought to the new world (they are not native to the americas) was for crop pollination?
Thank you. For this reason I think its important to support beekeeping.
One can assist bees without stealing their labor and food.
Alfred, I agree with everything except your last sentence. I’m not sure people knew of the importance of pollination in the 1600s but they DID know about honey.
Eating honey is not causing the honeybee, or any bee, population to decline. One MAJOR problem is non-organic farming within the bees distribution rages (which you mentioned), where the pesticides are directly and indirectly killing off the bees (domestic honey and native bumblebees). Also, the whole point of pesticides is to kill off bugs, so eating non-organic is not vegan (if you want to be technical). The other huge issue to bees is land clearing and developmet, which takes away the nectar producing flowers bees need in the first place. Another thing: did you know that much of the bee production is for pollinating agricultural crops, and not for consumable honey? I don’t think vegans who avoid honey are “crazy”, but it’s definitely another level of “extreme” that a lot of people don’t understand. Good on you for being able to effectively explain it to non-vegans.
honey harvesting as well as habitat destruction and poison (pesticides ) does decline that bee population?
Are you saying bees have another source of food during the winter season ? Or JUST TALKING? -_-
Have you ever seen bees flying around in the wintertime?
That’s because they’re frozen. Just like the mosquitos, and wasps and all other insects that freeze during the winter. They don’t need to eat anything because they are playing dead.
Bees don’t freeze in the winter, they cluster up and move slowly through the comb. Ask any beekeeper, I keep bees myself. If the cluster is too small they will freeze and die. Most beehives produce an excessive amount of honey, a certain percentage can be removed prior to winter, carefully without killing a single bee, leaving the hive with plenty to survive the winter. This is the method most hobbyist beekeepers employ. It’s very sustainable and ethical. Many times my hives have 50+ lbs of honey remaining the following Spring.
I think anyone who supports bee life is someone I want to support, since we have so many agents attacking them. I consider myself a vegan, but I don’t shy away from honey if it’s offered. (Yeah, go ahead, thrash me if you will. But please, read on.) If no one cared for the bees, we’d be without our pollinators. Also, most vegans I know use as much plastic as they please and drive everywhere. I consider those more harmful to our ecosystem as a whole, and to the environment in which all critters live — not just the “enslaved” ones. I’m trying to concern myself with the big picture here.
Why does “caring” for the bees require stealing from them? Because we are selfish exploiters, who, ungrateful to the bees for pollinating our crops, must also steal the fruits of their labor.
I thought this was pretty cool. Not necessarily the kind of tone I would use but it’s great that Matt Ball is finally used as a reference rather than more dogmatic individuals… *cough* Garys *cough*
So……….”dogmatic” means, in your mind, being consistent in practicing what one believes? So, if I believe that it is morally wrong to use animals for my own gain, when I have no need to whatsoever, I am being “dogmatic” in living my life according to that principle? By that logic, people who advocate against racism and live their lives according to the principle of not being racist are similarly dogmatic?
dogmatic= given to asserting or imposing personal opinions; arrogant (sounds like you, here, actually);
intolerantly authoritative (how is being consistent in thought and action “intolerantly authoritative”?)
And if you are referring to Gary Francione, well, he’s hardly dogmatic. I think *cough* “morally consistent” *cough* is what you’re looking for there.
Look up dogmatic and save us the time.
Troll. And one that upvotes itself, too. LOL
Honey is not vegan. And I’m is not vegetarian. I’m a vegetarian and I don’t eat honey or eggs.
*and it’s not vegetarian.
Did you watch the video?
I’m a vegetarian who drinks ahimsa milk (where the cows lives a pleasant life outside and doesn’t get killed). My question is, are the bees harmed or do they suffer when producing honey or are they doing what they would do naturally and we just take the leftover products? If that’s the case I would agree that it’s ok to eat, that’s the whole point of being vegan no?
………….what happens to all the calves? I mean, in order to get milk, cows must bear a calf. There would end up being a massive surplus of animals, not all of whom would be “productive”. So……what happens to the calves? I suspect that, as in any other dairy, they end up dead.
And no, you have entirely missed the point of veganism. Being vegan means we don’t exploit other sentient beings. Period. It doesn’t matter if products of their bodies are “left over” or if they “suffer”. What matters is that they are sentient beings who have inherent value, not just value we decide to give them based on what we can take from them, and they have their own interests, which include not being used as resources, in any way, by humans.
No, they don’t end up dead, they live out their natural lives in peace and harmony with their caretakers that love them. The humans lovingly take care of the cows and in return mother cow shares her milk with us. It is a relationship based in love, not exploitation and is very joyful! 🙂 it’s a beautiful thing…
It is exploitation because the cows cannot give their consent. It is not a “beautiful thing” for humans to take things from other animals that we don’t even need. “Peace and harmony” involves letting animals exist for their own sakes and not what we can take from them.
It’s amazing the things people tell themselves to justify their greed and selfishness–the cows “share” their milk, indeed. SMH.
Actually they do give consent, just not with words that we are used to. When you call them by name and they come running to you for feeding or milking they are very happy. Plus, a calf usually cannot drink all the milk that mom produces, mama needs to be milked to get relief otherwise she will be very uncomfortable and suffer. It is a win win for all involved. I would encourage you to spend some time on an ahimsa farm, you will see… 😉
…are you serious? “mama needs to be milked to get relief”. If we weren’t breeding her for her milk to begin with, then no, she wouldn’t “need” this relief. And no, they don’t give their consent. They can’t. You are projecting all kinds of things onto them. It is definitely NOT a “win-win” for the cows–only the humans. Unfortunately, people like you are contributing to a lot of unnecessary suffering. SMH.
Does that include “owning” pets? I find so many vegans own cats, esp. and I don’t get that. How one can be an ethically correct vegan and own a naturally carnivorous pet, either feeding it vegan (a form of selfish imposition of one’s dietary ethics contrary to the cat’s nature) or one can feed it meat, which I assume a committed vegan could never do.
Veganism means to be against the exploitation of nonhuman animals. Bees are nonhuman animals. So honey isn’t vegan! Fact. Sounds pretty rational to me. Keep in mind objectifying bees perpetuates the system that objectifies chickens (and many other animals). Can we please get to the root of the problem: objectification.
Veganism just means to be a strict vegetarian. Many people do chose veganism for for ethical reasons. But you can be 100% vegan amd drown puppies for the fun of it should you wish. You just can’t eat them afterwards. Many people are vegan for health reasons, or for broader ethical reasoning such as planetary sustainability, or because they’re fucking someone who is a hairshirt vegan and it makes their life easier if they’re allowed to share the fridge. Just because a lot of vegans are all like “think of the little animals” doesn’t make veganism itself an animal rights/welfare concern any more than having a penchant for cocaine and supernodels makes you a rockstar.
No!! You can’t be vegan and “drown puppies”!! Vegan is not a diet it is a lifestyle that avoids hurting, exploiting and eating animals. Human and non-human!
What if they were evil puppies? Puppies who worked in vivisection labs and did 9/11? Does being a vegan mean you couldn’t take pleasure from the gasping squeals of those vile bastards as the water fills their tiny, hate-filled lungs? Of course not. You’re talking bollocks.
Lol! Vegan might be a lifestyle, but there are many people who use it for weight loss. A close loved one of mine was using it to cover up an extreme eating disorder. People can eat whatever way they want without principle or ethics attached to it. Be realistic.
Veganism IS an extreme eating disorder, imo.
Well that is your opinion. Phew! so glad I care more about the well being of animals, the planet and my health than I do about your opinion.
I think the Standard American Diet is pretty extreme. It leads to heart disease, diabetes, and cancer. We all know this to be true, yet these 3 , very preventable, illnesses are of the top leading causes of death in this country. That’s insane. Eating a plant based diet is essential for a long, healthy life.
Amen Brother! Too bad most of society would rather consume animal products and die obese and ill than changing things up to live longer more productive lives disease free and reducing risk of said illnesses you speak of.
That’s is such a silly thing to say.
“Eating disorders are serious conditions related to persistent eating behaviors that negatively impact your health, your emotions and your ability to function in important areas of life.”
Not all vegans, btw. Just the ones who allow their diets to overtake their lives to such an extent that they become easily angered and overly irritated by people who don’t agree with their chosen lifestyle…which is roughly 98% of them according to my personal experience.
get out more
Torturing and killing others because you like their taste is extreme. Veganism is a philosophy!
That person eats a plantbased diet, which is great, but is not a vegan! Veganism: “a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.”
You’re confusing the philosophy with the diet. De-autosodomise yourself X
I certainly do not!! What are you on about!
You are talking about a plant based diet, and calling it veganism. Again:
Veganism is a justice movement to end the commodification of the other animals by US!
Vegans don’t USE veganism.
Vegans don’t USE animals. It is an ethical baseline, not a diet.
Also just a stellar comment. Thank you. I humbly bow to your superior sarcasm.
this is true…im vegan and couldn’t care less about animals. I just want my body to be pure, healthy and holy for God as a Seventh-Day Adventist Christian.
You are NOT vegan. You are a Seventh Day Adventist on a plant based diet for religious reasons.
plant based diet = vegan
No but there is a difference between a ‘vegan diet’ and being a full vegan. Vegan diet doesn’t eat animal products, full vegan doesn’t eat animals/animal products, doesn’t support animal objectification in any way shape or form. So if one considers themselves a ‘full vegan’ then I’m certain you wouldn’t catch them drowning a puppy. Same with vegetarians, there are veggie diets and full veggos. Lifestyle vegetarians do not support the killing of animals, so wouldn’t kill a puppy either.
Wrong on all counts! Veganism is NOT a kind of diet. It is a justice movement to stop the human use of animals.
It’s both diet and philosophy. The word is used, correctly, for both.
You are incorrect Veganism is against any use of animal products be it flesh or by-products of animals. Many strict Vegans are also against the wearing of leathers or using beauty, cleaning products that may have animal properties in them. With so many other plant based sweeteners available the use of honey is not required.
“Veganism is against any use of animal products be it flesh or ***by-products*** of animals.”
So then any fruit or vegetable that has been pollinated by BEES or BUTTERFLIES or any other pollinating INSECTS etc…
AH… GOTCHA! Good luck with avoiding those!
While the philosophy of morality is complex and nuanced, one of the great features of modern society is that moral rights can be campaigned for by passionate people in an open and inclusive discussion that leads to an evolution in society’s ethical values and the introduction and enforcement of laws that protect those values.
Your post probably fairly illustrates that some of those campaigning for animal rights can use negative rhetoric that comes across as shaming with a sense of superiority, which unfortunately may harm their cause more than it helps it. But you are close to arguing that morality should be an unvoiced personal choice. How would societies have reached a moral (and legal) consensus on things like the abolition of slavery, the protection of the weak and vulnerable, female voting rights etc if not for people challenging the status quo?
Here’s the thing: the insects and other critters killed in harvesting are collateral damage. It’s going to happen no matter what. Honey is theft from the bees.
BUT if someone said “I have to give up honey too?” and that’s the only thing keeping them from going vegan, I’d say something like, “If honey is the only thing keeping you from going vegan, then give up all animal foods but honey”
every time you walk in your yard, you are creating “collateral damage” when you step on unsuspecting bugs.
Yes I realize that. But the idea is to reduce harm where possible.
I ate 10 pounds of honey the other day…. I guess i’m not vegan any more… Damn.
Must be a fucking vegetarian…
Yes, but walking around or making some kind of ground contact is essential to staying alive. The point of vegetarianism and veganism is to avoid harming anything where it’s possible to do so without harming your own health or existence. If someone were on a desert island and the only edible food they found was a live animal, I would in no way condemn them for killing and eating said animal – the rational vegetarians and vegans only find that kind of thing offensive when people are eating them without necessity, i.e. for taste or convenience.
And the rest of us condemn you for being so judgmental about things that aren’t any of your concern. I for one like taste and convenience. So GFY.
No need for the foul language… It’s offensive lil mr keyboard hero!
Did I miss a comment? Where is the foul language you speak of?
Is what I was speaking of
Ya, thats pretty harsh. Better find a safe space so letters can no longer hurt you.
Jake675309 Bill and the GFY come on read between the lines here.
Simmer down, Salty Bill. 😛
It’s you who are being judge-mental. I don’t bother anyone who wants to keep eating meat or other animal products. But if you ask me why I don’t, I will be honest with you. If you don’t want to know, don’t ask and don’t read posts that explain it either. You “chose” to read those, so don’t now start bemoaning the fact that you did as if someone is judging you, or perhaps it tweaked your conscience?
Right, okay. Then don’t you ever take issue with a psychopath raping and murdering a little girl. You don’t know her so it’s none of your concern.
Wau! You can say the same thing without being so aggressive. No surprise you eat animals.
There will always be callous, selfish people. We know this.
So if two people were on an Island and there is no food its ok for one to eat the other?
If there’s no other food on the island, of course. It would become survival of the fittest. The instinctive priority for any living thing is to survive (and no vegan in their right mind would take issue with true survival), which requires some kind of food. If the only food source is another living being, then it has to be them.
“The point of vegetarianism and veganism is to avoid harming anything where it’s possible to do so without harming your own health or existence” In other words…….be vegan when its convenient for you to be vegan.
The philosophy of veganism is not cause any harm when we get conscious about it. Many know now about the cruelty behind animal agriculture, animal testing, animals used in entertainment, fashion, among many others. So, what happens to all the people that get to know about all these atrocities and yet prefer to fool themselves with non-sense excuses so they can keep fulfilling their pleasures no matter the cruelty, suffering and murdering?
Vegetarians and carnists call animals “things”, “it”.
Vegans refer to them as “persons”.
A “who” NOT an “it”.
That is accidental, amd unavoidable. Stealing the labor and food of bees is deliberate and avoidable.
Theft? That’s a legal concept.
And while I realize the grubers at PETA want everyone to believe that “a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy,” it’s not theft if you’re taking from something that has no concept of ownership in the first place, any more than bears are committing “theft” of honey.
Look. If you buy PETA’s insane view of the world, fine, that’s your prerogative. But then bears are committing theft, too, if you want to be consistent. And if you don’t buy into it, then there is no “theft.”
I do like your conclusion and advice in your last paragraph. It was a return to sanity.
You are a sub-human and proud of it? 😳
“Be a role model for other species” that help?
Read Sonia’s statement below
Who said bees have no concept of ownership? Social insects can be very territorial and will fiercely protect their home and resources. To the bees, it’s pretty clear that the hive and all that is in it is “theirs”, even if they don’t have a set of complex rules to explain why and how.
Have you always based your ethics on the instinctive and necessary behavior of wild animals? Then, how are you morally superior? If you are not superior, what excuse have you to exploit other animals?
please don’t use the term “collateral damage” to refer to lives lost. this is what the US govt started to do in the late 20th century when animals and other civilians were killed during acts of war.
Seems to me that to a large degree, local apiaries are saving bees. Bees are having a tougher and tougher time surviving “human progress”, and people who make honey on a smaller scale are actually keeping the various species alive. Is honey theft from bees, or is it symbiosis?
It is theft. They work so intensely to make the honey and save it, so they can have their food for the hardest months.
Weird i feel the same way about my taxes but, im sure u guys are pro taxes right…
Bees make more than they could ever use. Not harvesting can prompt a swarm late in the year, sentencing them to certain death.
How long have you been keeping bees?
Even honey bees work hard to produce wax which is their homes, honey is just residue that they use barely any of (compared to what they produced) to feed their larvae. Using wax in stuff like candles is more harmful to the bee population than eating honey…
It actually depends on the way the wax is harvested. If you’re destroying entire combs, yeah, that can bee (haha) harmful.
However, you can also harvest wax while harvesting honey. Companies will use the wax caps that were keeping the honey in the comb. If left to sit there, this wax would simply be destroyed by the bees when they ate the honey.
Also, full grown bees will also eat honey, not just larvae.
It is theft, and we all KNOW IT!
Yes, you can definitely still view it that way from a personal standpoint, and I won’t tell you you’re wrong. Most bee colonies still do produce extreme excesses of honey. They eat it during the winter months, but often still have excess for the Spring.
I would still say it’s very smart to support your local bee keeping society (not the major big corporations, they abuse bees really badly). Hey, even vegans can keep bees without harvesting their honey! Bees need help right now, and if no one goes out of their way to ensure their survival, they’ll not survive humans.
Well, if u harvest vegetables with machines, u are killing more bugs than just some bees 😛
best comment on this entire page. ^^^^ kudos to you, good sir. kudos to you.
And they only use man made products. All that pollution must be so healthy for all those animals and bugs!!
We use PLANTS! They are not man made, they are grown in dirt! Everything all humans use is prepared for him in some way. We do not kill animals for these products.
You are comparing accidental harm, with deliberately causing harm by stealing bees’ labor and food.
In what way can u call it accidental harm? They use machines to harvest vegetables for their own consumption and knowing that dozens of creatures are living in the field they still destroy their homes. Thats much worse than just taking some honey or bee wax from bees. It is in no way accidental harm because they could have chosen not to do it with machines.
80% of the crops thus harvested are used to feed the animals meat eaters eat! To reduce the accidental deaths of insects and small animals, the best step to take is to GO VEGAN! Vegans use about far LESS cropland because we do not wastefully pass our food first through the bodies of farmed animals.
To produce one pound of meat requires feeding the animal 12 pounds of plants!
That might be the case for now. If we all suddenly stop eating meat, what do u think would be the outcome? People will start to crave carbs such as rice, oatmeal, potatoes etc. because they can start to eat more of these due to the lack of meat. Therefore, more land is required to make more food. It could even turn out to be worse lol If i woukd go vegan, 80% of my diet will be carbs only because i will never be satisfied with vegetables
80% of crops are harvested – with machines – to feed to the animals we eat.
I’m normally a vegetarian but trying my hand in being a vegan , now the biggest problem was my love of eggs but I have done it and it’s fine but HOLY honey I have used honey for my sugar for over 4 years Im a little upset about the honey
Ya know, if the only thing that keeps you from being vegan is honey, than give up all animal foods but honey. Or try agave nectar, which is just as sweet (if a bit less viscous) and made from plants.
I love agave nectar! (My favorite is called tequila.)
Bees deserve your effort. They work so hard to have the honey for the winter months. They make the honey for them not for us. Try other sources of sweetness. Agave, stevia, sugar cane …
There’s no need to deprive yourself of sweetness, there are alternatives – bee free honey (made from apples), maple syrup, corn syrup, date syrup, stevia (plant). coconut nectar, barley malt syrup, brown rice syrup, molasses – too may to mention. Well done for looking at veganism x
“Until you go vegan, nothing changes. Once you go vegan, everything changes.”
I always encourage people to go vegan. That means eschewing honey.
Yet, they will syill not be vegans!
I think that if you buy honey from farmers markets you are helping bees in a way, because those small farmers tend to love their bees and they are helping keep bee population up when colony collapse is such a problem. Who can deny that the almond industry is WAY more harmful to bees than small honey farmers. I don’t buy groceries with honey as an ingredient but will buy local honey
I see your points–yes, all of them.
I don’t really view Veganism as “perfection”. I’m all for being gentle with people and not completely overwhelming them with information. The idea “a little bit goes a long way” is often true when I’ve looked to help people find their biggest, truest hearts and live their lives as compassionately as they possibly can at every moment. Thus far this method has worked well for me! That being said I personally don’t consume honey based on my vegan ethics. Perhaps another person feels it’s suitable to do so, but that person isn’t me. I will share whatever information I have and my viewpoints, and I expect nothing more nor anything less of others than for them to do exactly that. I know that I strive to push my limits when it comes to my ethics, and to question myself often and to act with tremendous integrity as my knowledge grows. And boy does it ever grow: it grows in leaps, and it grows in tremendous bounds.
Personally, I’d encourage everyone to nourish and care for bees and all life, and for me this means never taking what they’ve worked so hard for. I suppose someone could argue that bees are Zen masters and practice non-attachment, making them impenetrable to another being taking what they’ve worked for. Despite my spiritual inclinations I’m not terribly convinced of this to the point that I would take honey, propolis or anything else they’ve made to sustain themselves and their hive. Instead I’d also practice non-attachment, thus looking elsewhere for what I believe the bees offer which I am convinced that I need enough in order to take it from them
Cheers, gents. Thanks for keeping people thinking, you do it with such voracious style. <3Aubrie
I see what you guys are saying, and I don’t love presenting more obstacles to potential vegans out there, but as many other commenters have said: people need to know more about bees and if we can open up that discussion, that’s one more person educated. I don’t think a person who is actually seriously committed to veganism would just decide to eat a steak because they feel like they can’t avoid honey… I remember I questioned the honey thing too back when I went vegan and I had my mind blown by the information I learned. If honeybees go down, we are all dead anyway.
Declaring an animal product as vegan doesn’t just magically make it vegan. If they want to be called vegan, then they should be full vegan. If honey becomes the deciding factor for people becoming vegan then they are obviously just looking for the title without making a sacrifice. It’s like people who say they are vegetarian but eat fish. Those people confuse the rest of the population and then these animals aren’t viewed as animals anymore. I’m not going to change the definition of what it means for a food product to be vegan or vegetarian just to please people looking for a title without commitment. We should instead me teaching people why these products AREN’T vegan instead of confusing them with false information.
Why are you trying to make veganism into a special club? How does that help animals? The animals don’t need us to define the word “vegan.” They need us to be effective.
While I do understand the logic being used in the video, I just don’t believe that there are people out there thinking, “I’ll become vegan if I can eat honey, otherwise I’m still gonna keep eating meat”. The discussion is between vegans and vegetarians, and you can see proof of this in all of the comments.
While I’ve never thought of veganism as a “club” (I just view is as a clearly defined diet) you could say that people do view it as one—that is the only reason this discussion is happening in the first place. As I said before, the argument is between vegans and vegetarians wanting to be called vegans, but if you want to be vegan then stop eating one more food item—it’s as simple as that. And it honestly shouldn’t be a big deal anyway because this particular item is mostly (and probably sparingly) used as an indulgence anyway.
I do believe that labeling food and talking about it factually is the only effective way in protecting animals, and also the only way to stop these debates from happening in the first place. Otherwise, it leads to vegans telling their friends they can eat honey and vegetarians saying they can eat fish, so then these new people switch over their diets (if it can even be called switching since they aren’t actually actually cutting out the things that they are supposed to) and these animals continue to be harmed because everyone thinks it’s ok to eat them and the stuff they make. Then we’ll announce, “oh by the way, these foods aren’t vegan or vegetarian so please stop eating them” and then there will just be another debate about it like this one.
This false labeling also causes confusion amongst the people that are actually making our food. I shouldn’t have to go to restaurants and educate a server on what constitutes as vegan. Vegetarians (and even vegans, actually) shouldn’t have to continuously let people know that no, they don’t eat fish. This flexitarian mentality causes widespread confusion and that’s what actually needs to stop if we want to save animals.
I had a non-vegan say to me once when I was talking about veganism with him that he “draws the line at honey.” This was said as he was eating a lamb-burger. You are bang-on, Eric. Being “allowed” to eat honey ain’t gonna make non-vegans go vegan.
How is veganism a “club”?! It’s a word, with an actual meaning. It’s not a “club” and it’s not “elitist”. How can we be “effective” when people like you keep clouding the issues by focusing on stupid things like this?
I’m not sure if this is directed towards me or Vegan Bros. I don’t think of veganism as a club. However, the people arguing that honey is vegan sure do. Most of the people in favour of calling honey vegan are people that probably do eat a majority of vegan food, but they want the title without giving up those last few indulgences. I just don’t believe that meat-eaters are a part of this conversation, so the point trying to be made in this video doesn’t feel valid to me.
If vegans just stopped talking about honey or stopped provide the facts, then other “vegans” would keep eating honey and nothing would change and that is what’s actually causing harm to animals.
Definitely directed at Vegan Bros, not you. You are right in saying that the people arguing that honey is vegan sure do see veganism as a club and that meat-eaters are not likely part of that group. Even if they were, the points in the video would not be valid. Exploiting animals is either wrong or it’s not wrong. If it is, we can’t advocate for “some” exploitation for the sake of our own convenience or palate pleasure. And I agree that we can’t stop talking about honey or any other form of animal exploitation just because some people find it off-putting, annoying or inconvenient. When I said “focusing on stupid things like this”, I meant that the Vegan Bros are dredging up honey as some sort of issue and acting like it’s somehow lesser, rather than just focusing on advocating veganism, period.
It is more likely that people take steps on their way to being vegan than to instantly “become vegan” at the snap of their fingers. So do you attack someone who has decided to become vegetarian or do you praise them for the change they’ve made, then mentor them in a kind way? Lead them into veganism! There are many steps along the way. If we demand immediate perfection, fewer people will take our road and more animals will suffer.
Look in the mirror… how did you evolve? Do forget your own journey or the journey of other amazing advocates and messengers out there! GROW UP!!!!
Thanks for opening this discussion, Vegan Bros!!!
Ah, the welfarist “baby steps”, “the world won’t go vegan overnight”, etc. Please stop right now. People will go vegan however they choose–I cannot control that. What I CAN control is what I advocate for–and that should never be for anything less than veganism. I am not demanding immediate perfection, whatever the hell that even means. We can never BE perfect vegans. But we can certainly do a lot better than eating honey when there is no need to. Your kind talks about “journeys” and all that crap–veganism is not a journey where the end is being vegan. It’s the first STEP on a journey. Yes, people will trip along the way, but we need to get them to START at being vegan. We need them to acknowledge that using animals is unjust, and we help them change, but we never, ever, ever advocate for anything less than veganism. Perhaps someday you and the Vegan-ish Bros will realize this and stop telling others it’s okay to exploit animals. When you make veganism all about someone’s “personal journey”, you make it about THEM and not about the animals they are killing. That is NOT okay.
I have never once commented on a thread like this especially for the sake of disagreeing with someone but here it goes….
First off, I’m someone who is transitioning into a vegan diet after about a year of careful consideration, research, and discussion to see if this is truly a lifestyle change I want to commit to. The “hold up” has really become more of a culturally-ingrained reason for me in that I was feeling excluded with my own family and my boyfriend whom I’ve lived with for three years now. I am the sole “meal prepper” and I almost felt selfish moving into veganism because it directly affected him and his own personal eating habits. Anyways, I have decided to make the transition because it truly does resonate with me from a compassionate perspective and also from the environmental perspective.
That being said, I have been doing a lot of research on whether honey can be considered vegan or nonvegan and for me, personally, this WOULD be a determining factor on being labeled a true vegan. I cannot consume many sweeteners and sugars because of a digestive issue and I have always had success using honey as my main sweetener. I, of course, have read and seen many articles and videos on what is happening to bees everywhere (colony collapse) and I feel horrible seeing these images and reading these things. But, in the grand scheme of things, industrial farming in crop fields and the pesticides used are what are killing many of these bees. So, even the most vegan-y of the vegans is in part also contributing to colony collapse unless you’re only eating from your own garden and grains from a field you know the farmer personally and their ethics AND an orchard where NO bees are brought in and they just naturally go there. That has why I’ve resigned to eat as local as possible and from my backyard as much as I can, but there are still grocery items I need in which I don’t personally know what’s happening in the pollination realm there.
I attended my very first Vegan/Vegetarian meet up on Tuesday and everyone was so welcoming and kind. Almost every single person I met applauded me on my transition and they each had their own means and ways of deciding to become vegan. Not one person made any negative comments to me on the things I still consume and am trying to cut out. I would have seriously reconsidered ever meeting or talking with that group of people again if ANYONE would have talked to me in the way joyless_vegan has been talking.
I do not plan on cutting out honey. I do buy my honey from a person I know well though. I know it may not make me a “true” vegan, and there will be people who are upset with my choice, but you can’t tell me I am not helping to end suffering by following EVERY OTHER component in a vegan diet. That’s like me saying to my vegan friend who literally just eats packaged vegan meals that she’s not a true vegan because those frozen dinners are not as good as my fresh from the garden meals because hers had to be transported and who knows what had to die to get it to her grocery store.
I truly understand that adopting a vegan lifestyle affects every part of your life from the food you eat, the clothes you wear, and the make up/cosmetics you may use before going to work. I truly understand that becoming vegan means having compassion and respect for all sentient beings and trying to reduce the amount of suffering these other beings experience. And I want to be a part of that. I, however, am totally against people not showing compassion to other humans who are transitioning in their own way and are ending suffering of animals by taking the necessary steps that work for them at that time. Our common goal is to reduce suffering for EVERYONE. I don’t understand how forums like this get turned into a “who’s the better vegan?” or into this weird club feel. Why does there need to even be different labels? It is all so diminishing to the REAL cause.
……….so you would turn your back on a matter of fundamental justice for animals because you didn’t like how I spoke to you? Seriously? Then you are not going vegan for animals, and the fact that you spoke to how you were waffling because of how standing up for animals might upset your boyfriend and how you felt “selfish”……..what if your boyfriend was misogynist? What if he discriminated against women because he felt entitled to use women’s bodies however he wanted to, and he felt that women are mere things who have no rights? That would anger you, yes? And you would stand up to that, regardless of how “excluded” it made you feel, because we do what is right even if others don’t “agree” with it and get “mad” at us.
So why does that, in your mind, not hold true for animals too?
It has nothing to do with how you are spoken to by vegans. I have met plenty of feminists I don’t like buy HEY STILL FEMINIST HERE because it’s what is right.
If you shuck of veganism because of how someone speaks to you, you are not committed to animal rights to begin with.
I would never turn my back on matter of fundamental justice for animals because of how “you” personally spoke. If I was going to a meeting like I had the other day for SUPPORT I would not return if I were being ATTACKED as you have done throughout this entire thread. It has nothing to do with continuing being vegan or not. You took it personally.
I guess where I get confused most (and not just on this particular thread) is why everyone’s so hung up on LABELS??? Hipster. Flexitarian. Alpha Female. Vegan-ish. It literally doesn’t make any sense to me. Even if I continue to eat honey, I am still going to “label” myself as vegan for anyone who gives a shit. This is not something I will announce to people. I’m not wearing it as a badge to bring up every horrible thing that is happening in industrial farming. Of course, if people wanted to talk to me about it, I would be open to it. So, no, I guess I wouldn’t be a vegan from YOUR perspective JOYLESS because I won’t be going around shoving information down people’s throats and calling out all they’re working on/trying to change.
As for selfish, that is what I’m talking about with how my transition is taking a while. I, of course, want to reduce my carbon foot print and see all living being treated with care and respect. I, also, realize I have MY life and how it DIRECTLY affects the person living in my household. Luckily, he is being very supportive and learning a lot along the way, too.
As for the misogynist comment…I don’t know where that even comes from or how it is appropriate? So I won’t even entertain the idea.
and as for “shucking off veganism” I am not doing that. All I said was if there was someone like you in the group, I don’t think I would return.
Joyless sums up exactly how you must feel constantly that you actually sit and respond to every single thread on this post. I mean, who has time to spread so much negativity? Instead of replying rudely and coming up with weird anecdotal tales of “if [my] boyfriend were a misogynist….” why not say, “Hey, you know what? I’ve read some great articles on other plant based sweeteners that maybe you should try….”
I imagine you sitting at home with a microwave reheated cup of coffee still in your PJs trolling the internet to spread your doctrine.
BTW, Vegan Bros this is my first post of yours I’ve ever encountered and I’m excited to check out more from you guys as I make the transition to veganism!
It is utterly amazing how you missed every. single. point. Wow. You do you. But you aren’t vegan. Words mean things.
Words can also mean absolutely nothing. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you were concerned with MY personal choice, maybe you would direct me to some other sources, facts, or literature to help me see from your perspective. In fact, I would totally welcome it and be appreciative.
My whole point was that my transition is different, just like everyone else’s, and I also have my own set of health concerns and issues that I bring to the table just like everyone else. You couldn’t ask a Muslim to just start eating pork one day. Food is a very culturally ingrained thing and can be a hard thing to change if you’ve been eating the Standard American Diet for years and years.
BTW, You win the “Most Vegan” Award.
Words mean everything. I am not a chair; I am a human being. I am not black; I am white. I am not a man; I am a woman. See? Words mean things. Vegan has a meaning, whether you like it or not. And veganism is NOT a “personal choice”. Personal choice is what color you like or how you wear your hair today. What books you read. What shows you watch. When you eat an animal, there is a victim. Your “choice” involves their victimization, making your “choice” decidedly NOT personal.
Why would I ask a Muslim to eat pork, and what does that have to do with anything? Veganism is NOT a “transition” or “personal journey”. It’s not an end goal. You START with veganism. You make the decision that you want to end your participation in animal exploitation, and you do. You may make mistakes due to ignorance, but you START with the desire to be vegan. Being vegan is not something you “work toward”. That is a welfarist message and it doesn’t do anything for animals. It merely pacifies humans.
People like to hide behind “culturally ingrained”. Sexism and racism are “culturally ingrained” too, but do we take “baby steps” and only tell racist or sexist jokes a few days a week? No. When you realize something is wrong, you do all you can to stop doing it.
“BTW, You win the ‘Most Vegan’ Award”. What a stupid thing to say. You are either vegan or you are not. There are no degrees of veganism. Get over yourself.
Also, HONEY IS NOT VEGAN. Try any of the other sweeteners out there–your palate pleasure should not come before someone else’s right to live free of exploitation.
If you would have thoroughly read and understood what I had written, I CANNOT use certain sweeteners because of digestion issues. It has nothing to do with taste.
I did read. Then go without. You CAN live without sweeteners. It is possible.
Our common goal is NOT to “reduce suffering”. Our goal, as real, actual vegans, is to stop animal exploitation. Not make others feel better for continuing to exploit animals, needlessly.
I get that. Animal Exploitation = Animals suffering.
right, but we are not “reducing”. We are “eliminating”. The end goal is not “reduction”. The end goal is ABOLITION. It is not “strategy” to take “baby steps” because that just encourages and increases exploitation.
Unfortunately, you don’t “get it” and I doubt you ever will.
Too judgmental, ignored.
No intellectual content.
Even longer, and still didn’t read.
So, cover your ears, cover your eyes, and prevent any information from enlightening you.🙈🙉🙊
Vegans simply promote veganism. It isn’t a journey. It isn’t a club. It isn’t a diet.
It is a justice movement and a philosophy aimed at freeing the other animals from human dominion/ subjugation/ USE.
Much too long, didn’t read.
There are remedial reading classes available for adults, too. Such a class may make reading several sentences easier for you!
Joyless needs a life whatever you can do to save an animals life is important, we need to stick to the main point that our society is so fascinated with meat consumption that we trivialize “chicken legs” without a second thought. Honey or no honey…lets do what we can to slow down our consumption of animal products with the goal of saving lives. That’s what’s important not a strange cat lady ranting on social media.
Joyless is a troll. Isn’t it clear by now? Probably the Vegan Bros, whose article I enjoyed, are posting as it just to stir up a “conversation” by playing devil’s advocate as polar opposite to their own, powerful points.
LOL, hey it’s the internet!
Joyless Vegan is engaging in a discussion with the aim of clarifying what veganism is, to those who confuse the movement with animal welfarism.
Too long, didn’t read.
Yes, they need us to effectively stop using them. That’s what the other animals need. They don’t need anyone making excuses for animal exploitation.
I think the definition of vegan needs to be reconsidered if it doesn’t include honey. Again, we’re “exploiting” insects every time we raise plants. There’s no avoiding killing a lot of them when food is harvested. It is a sad fact. And I’m not arguing this because I want to eat honey. I can’t eat honey and I still think the vegan community needs to be a bit more reasonable. If we really care about helping animals, we need to stop being unreasonable and hypocritical.
I agree with your points, except one when it comes to framing the narrative.
There is no “vegan community.” There are just sad individuals like Joyless_vegan who make their own judgments and communicate (poorly) their own way.
Those are “alternative facts” as Drumph would say. Vegans don’t USE animals. We don’t deliberately choose to exploit animals. We may, though, regrettably step on an ant by accident. Buying honey is a deliberate exploitation/use of animals. Vegans don’t USE animals.
………oh, yay, more “vegans” insisting that *some* animal exploitation is okay. Fab. Why couldn’t you have taken the time you used to make this video to make a video that actually educates people that animal exploitation–in ALL its forms–is WRONG?
We understand your frustration. And we agree that animal exploitation in all its forms is wrong. But if we want to end all animal exploitation as soon as possible we can’t just do whatever we think. We need to be strategic and we need to look to what scientific research says, etc. The animals are counting on us.
….what? “we agree that animal exploitation in all its forms is wrong” but we’re going to act like we’re okay with eating honey so we don’t come across as *extreme* to all those non-vegans. Number one, that’s hardly “strategic”, and number two, if it is somehow “strategic”, then I’d rather be clear and concise and uncompromising about what veganism is than to confuse the matter to non-vegans by being “strategic”. “The animals are counting on us.” Just not the bees, apparently.
What is more important to you?
a. “Being clear and concise and uncompromising about what veganism is” even if it means there will be more suffering because of it
b. doing what’s best in each situation to spare the most amount of suffering
What is more important? BEING CLEAR AND CONCISE AND UNEQUIVOCAL ABOUT WHAT VEGANISM IS. Otherwise, you are doing the animals a HUGE disservice by convoluting the message and indicating that some forms of animal exploitation are okay for the sake of human convenience. How can you not understand that?
You are stupid. More animal suffering is not better than less suffering. You just lost all the merits of your argument to vanity.
YES! My beef (yes, I said that on purpose!) with “nazi vegans” is explained in what I love to say to them… “Do you want to make a point or do you want to save animals from suffering?” Basically my way of saying what you said above.
Thanks for who you guy are! I LOVE you!!
Anytime an ideology is driven by fear, it starts to lose its credibility. We should give people the benefit of the doubt & inform them without urgency, anxiety, or pressure. VeganBros offered one extreme approach in favor of the other extreme approach. We can stick to our guns without resorting to fanaticism. It’s simply about us still being approachable, but without sacrificing our convictions. How hard can that be? I’ve had success with this, I don’t understand how we’ve gotten so divided.
“sticking to our guns” is exactly what I am advocating, and look at what the response is: “fanaticism!” “Nazi!” “extremist!” “vanity!”. Literally ALL I am saying is that if we want people to go vegan, we advocate veganism, not some watered-down, honey-eating, horse-riding bullshit excuseitarian version of it. And I am labelled “extremist”. THAT is the problem with the “animal rights” movement today–asshole welfarists and baby-steppers.
That may be the message you want to convey, but if you’d stop and see the feedback you’re getting then, clearly, it’s not what you’ve done. You can either learn from the experience or continue to beat your head on the wall, happy with each searing pain that you’re doing it for the greater good.
In other words, you’re no different than a 13th Century Catholic monk.
Like all elitists who think only their message is pure, and only their way is the “right” way, your communication and thinking skills leave no room for incremental achievements, let alone convincing others on the fence.
We’re fine with our approach. This apoplexy is yours. Too bad. One day, perhaps, you’ll wake up and wonder what perceived benefit you get from repeating your failing approach with other people all the time. Then you might get that less pain is better than more pain–for any animal, even you.
And there’s a wider issue: Why “joyless” vegan as your moniker? Out of the gate, you’re conveying what? Yeah. That. Great sales pitch! lol
Or, you’re just a troll. Either way, I’m done with you.
Slave owners considered Abolitionists to be extremists. They were wrong. You are also wrong for the same reason.
JUSTICE! Justice is not extreme.
No urgency? If you were another species you would consider your very life a matter of urgency!
I’m speaking about the urgency in one’s voice. If you’re speaking in a desperate tone, then no one will listen. Speaking with the intent to create urgency is a different matter. I’ve been in sales for over a decade, and urgency is created tactfully and with a calculated approach. No one ever changed by being pushed into or bullied into it. You can get someone to respond emotionally without you yourself overeacting emotionally. You also have to make people believe it’s their idea and that they can go at their own pace. If you dictate the parameters of how they should change, then they won’t feel like they’re doing it of their own free will. There’s a certain level of intelligence that goes into persuasion techniques, and that’s why some can turn people off & away from veganism rather than help the cause.
Veganism is not just about degrees of suffering. That is the Animal Welfare Movement. They believe in using animals for human convenience but somewhat reducing the degree of misery they cause.
Vegans do not USE animals. At all!
Totalitarians on both the Left and the Right never see an accommodating middle, nor are they patient with transition periods.
I remember a year ago when Chris Christie (whom I abhor) stated that he’d sign legislation that legalized gay marriage in New Jersey, even though he personally did not agree with it; he said he would do it, and did, because he realized the people of NJ differed with him on the subject.
The next day on her radio show, Rachel Maddow excoriated Christie for not being a “true believer.” You see, with all these totalitarian types, it’s not enough just to do the right thing, wholly or even incrementally. If you’re not “pure” (by their standards), you’re the enemy.
All of this is based on the implication that people think not eating honey is extreme. And most aren’t, they are actually curious to hear the reasoning. And that’s a beautiful thing, that people are now open to discussion rather than shutting us out completely. Also, people once thought not eating dairy or eggs was extreme, but that didn’t stop us from informing them did it? And to be honest, we’ve made such headway with opening the panels for questioning that we don’t have to live in fear anymore of backlash. Sure it’ll be there if we use the wrong approach, but my experience has been fairly positive. People even thank me for being eloquent and “not so self-righteous as others have been”. It’s important to be a good example of the compassion we live by. It seems almost manipulative to give a portion of the truth. Why even mention honey at all? Why not get straight to the concept of exploitation in a general sense? If we do that, they’ll soon make the connection on their own. But don’t intentionally avoid the subject out of fear. Anytime an ideology is driven by fear, it starts to lose its credibility. We should give people the benefit of the doubt & inform them without urgency, anxiety, or pressure. VeganBros offered one extreme approach in favor of the other extreme approach. We can stick to our guns without resorting to fanaticism. It’s simply about us still being approachable, but without sacrificing our convictions. How hard can that be? I’ve had success with this, I don’t understand how we’ve gotten so divided
I’m sorry, but we have to “exploit” insects all the time to raise the food we vegans eat. That is just a fact. I appreciate that you care so much about animal exploitation, but I think your concern about honey is misplaced and part of the problem with how vegans are perceived.
We are not “exploiting” bees when we benefit from pollination. That is their normal behavior. We ARE exploiting them when we steal their honey.
Okay, that’s a good point. However, it would be difficult for most vegans (and yes, others) to enjoy a healthy, varied diet without benefiting from the exploitation of other human beings and the death of countless insects. Follow a great deal of the food we eat from the grocery store to its origin and you’ll find plenty of exploitation. The original definition of veganism wasn’t about perfectionism. When that is the focus, we are rightfully perceived as being more fanatics than people who actually care about animal suffering and exploitation.
I would much rather have you talk about if,bees are hurt or helped being raised and honey harvested, instead.
I disagree. You could apply this logic to any aspect of veganism. “Don’t talk about bone char sugar, you make us look crazy.” “Don’t talk about isinglas, you make us look crazy.” “Don’t talk about riding horses, you make…” Etc.
I’m a Vegan, and I keep bees. You know what I take from those bees? Not a damn thing.
Sorry vegan bro’s, you are dead wrong on this one.
Thank you. You have shown that you can assist bees, without stealing from them. They help us inadvertantly, but greatly, by their natural work of pollinating. Isn’t that enough to be grateful for? We don’t need to steal the fruits their labor.
As a bee keeper, whose only hives were obtained by bringing a hive/colony home because the bees were going to be sprayed and destroyed by the home owner if I did not do a “live bee rescue”, I do not think the bees would mind if once a year they are asked to share SOME of their honey. I plant bee friendly plants. I keep the wax moth and ants out of their hives (wax moth and ants can wipe out a hive). I do not kill the drones, I do not medicate or feed fake food (soy patties) to my bees- they are very healthy and have a great immune system. If anything, my bees help strengthen the colonies that are created by the hives I have saved. The honey is never heated and so it is a very beneficial, living food and can be a symbiotic relationship.
You only steal a little? 👼😲
Hi, Guys. While I understand what You are saying, My objection to honey is the fact it is often cheaper (and therefore incentivized) for the honey Farmer to kill the colony each fall and replace it each spring instead of maintaining it through the winter. Change that practice and I might reconsider.
European honey bees
All I am saying is that I created Bee Free Honee (“honey” made from apples), in part to help save the bees and to reduce production demand so the bees can catch a break (dare I say, help save them?). In our demos education about our pollinators is a primary focus. So thank you for considering these beautiful guys. I love bees! But…Bee Free Honee is vegan, so everyone can stop arguing now…that is the added benefit. 🙂
I think it’s important to bring up honey. Firstly, if they decide not to go vegan because they have the whole truth they likely were not going to go vegan anyhow and would find some other excuse.
I don’t hear many people talking about the very distructive Impact bee keeping has on our ecosystem. A little bee 101 for those not in the know. Bees used by humans not native to where they are being introduced negatively effect the native pollinators and reduce their numbers as they are typically much more aggressive then the natives. As the populations of native pollinators decrease we become dependent on the bee keepers non-native species of bees. Which further agrivates this problem and severely impacts the natural ecosystem in this respective area. Bee keeping is only a small issue to us if we are stuck in our conditioning that does value how important their lives are to themselves and to our natural environment.
Every time someone decides to consume fewer animal products should be considered a win. Being supportive of someone who may be curious about eating a vegan diet or about cutting out animal products for even a meal every week creates less demand for animal products. So someone eating vegan 95% of time…Hell Yeah! No need to make others feel morally deficient or like an asshole because they drink a glass of milk or have a wedge of cheese one Friday. Preaching perfectionism and moral superiority doesn’t make people want to eat fewer animals…it makes people want to tell you to Fuck Off.
So, not sure if any of the people involved in this discussion are even still checking these posts, but just as a general response to the whole “95% vegan” thing… well, yeah. I consider myself “veg” meaning that I mostly eat vegan, but at times when I am eating with my family or the only food in the house is my family’s groceries or I am at a restaurant… I make some decisions I would rather not. I am recovering from a severe eating disorder, and becoming vegan has made it possible for me to love my food decisions as I know they are helping others! But, I am recovering from a severe eating disorder, so any form of restrictive eating can turn into a relapse. If my only options are “eat something with honey (OR milk/egg)” (happened this morning) or “don’t eat until dinner”, you bet your ass I am going to eat that cereal because if I want to keep this fight going for – not just for my life but the lives of all of the critters on this planet, I need to be alive and well, and not look like I will collapse at any moment from malnutrition. How does that make people want to join the cause?
Do I think eating honey is bee exploitation? YES! Am I going to feel guilty for eating it in a situation where it is “Food with honey” or “No food”? NO! I need to nourish my body and feel NO SHAME for the food I put into it.
For me, this lifestyle is about minimizing negative impact on all of the lives on this planet. From the conversations below, it seems like some people think “0% vegan” and “95% vegan” are the same thing…. Well, consider the wide variety of situations people are in. If someone is able to cut out 95% of animal products, REJOICE WITH THEM! Grow up and don’t argue with them over semantics, it is really unbecoming.
Honey is not vegan – fine, great, fanfuckingtastic some people will go vegan EXCEPT they’ll keep sucking down that sweet, pre-digested bee vomit. More power to them, I guess. They’re not vegan. I guess I am not either, as I do sometimes eat things (like commercial bread from Trader Joe’s) that has honey in it. I do not buy honey and use it otherwise – maple syrup, agave syrup, raw sugar, fruit juice concentrates, there are LOTS of sweet things to use instead off honey – but honey is not vegan. Guess I should stop being a lazy piece of shit and not eat bread that could be vegan aside from the bee vomit.
Honey is the same as milk. It is food intended for the infant that is ‘stolen’ for human consumption.
“We need to be strategic and we need to look to what scientific research says, etc.” Please state your “scientific research” resources for your viewers to evaluate. Thank you!
These comments are exactly the reason I do not say I’m vegan or vegetarian. I’m a “conscious eater”. If I have 1 egg every six months because I’m in a vegan desert and will annoy the crap out of those I’m with if I don’t eat then I’m no longer vegan. If a well meaning family member buys me veggie burger for a cookout by accident I am supposed to refuse the food and insult the effort she made because those burgers just aren’t good enough. You don’t make friends (or vegans) by being an asshat. She bought those burgers with the intention of eating them too. What kind of message would I have sent if I denied her effort. She made a vegetarian meal (even the sides!) and I practically threw her a parade. Seriously. I made the biggest deal out of her effort ever – think kid went potty in the toilet for the first time level excitement.
I am eating at her house again this weekend and guess what? She made sure the got vegan burgers this time and everyone is eating them. Had I thrown a fit she would have made beef burgers and I would not have been invited. So, to answer the question at hand, honey is vegan, but, if that is the sticking point, who gives a shit? I would rather save the 100 animals a year and they still eat honey then save no animals and they still eat honey. Baby steps people. Once they give up the other stuff, if you really care, you can star gentle conversations (not lectures) about bees and honey.
I started as a ovo-vegetarian (no milk). Then I stopped eating eggs. Then I stopped eating honey. It took me six months. I may not have done it if I was surrounded by asshats who kept telling me that I am not doing enough. I still eat the occasional piece of bread and that makes me not vegan and that’s okay. I still eat thing that have sugar and dye in them and that’s okay. I have saved about 25 animals since I started this in December and I feel great about it. Eating a little egg in my bread on my otherwise vegan sandwich isn’t going to change that. Vegan purity is getting animals killed.
How do you calculate how many animals you save??? That seems very powerful…as I am almost all vegan (not going to get into the honey discussion…which is what brought me to this site in the first place), and would love to have some idea how many animals I save…it would help with not feeling so sad and discouraged by all the carnivores around me…esp with “turkey day” coming…and all the “turkey drives”…as though not having turkey to eat is somehow going to make people starve???
Newsflash: you’re not saving any animals by being vegan. You’re just ensuring that more meat goes to waste and gets thrown out while the price of it gets higher and higher. I know a family with five children who currently can’t afford meat and are being forced into veganism against their will. I can guarantee they can’t afford quinoa or a lot of the high-protein foods and all the supplements you folks eat to compensate for lack of meat, either…so those kids will eventually become malnourished and sickly without outside help. In your blind push to save those precious animals and cause huge imbalances in the food chain, you don’t even consider the negative social and economic impacts your diet has on other human beings.
That’s why vegans piss me off; the hypocrisy just dumbfounds me.
I totally feel for the family and don’t intend to dismiss your comment, but rice and beans are very cheap and a complete protein. Veganism isn’t expensive, but tasty extra fancy products are. Nutrition is something a lot of people THINK they understand because “i’ve been eating food my whole life”. If the family needs help, they could go to a library computer and learn about how to eat cheap vegan food for free.
Obviously, as a vegan myself it makes me sad when people say that vegans are dumb or whatever.
If you have time, watch the documentary Cowspiracy – it’s about what you think veganism is doing to hurt society, but its actually doing the opposite.
Well wishes and I hope any bitterness in your heart goes away because at the end of the day, anger is a wasted emotion.
You don’t need meat to live a healthy life. Contrary to what mainstream media feeds society, meat and other animal products cause more harm than good to your body. You seem to be unaware of the science of nutrition and a plant based diet. I recommend you look into it, it might help you understand more why people choose not to eat animals, from a purely nutritional perspective. “How Not To Die” by Micheal Greger is a great, comprehensive book on it.
I am a newborn vegan… as in I just decided last night to become Vegan. I saw a video on PETA’s website that showed horrible abuse to those poor farm animals. The importance of this is, just the other DAY, I was a meat-lover… I used to joke how I wanted to go on an all-meat diet, and I even tried it for a month or two! Now, I am making the Vegan choice because I had no idea that these animals are abused to this extent. I think some of you Vegans on this comment forum are losing sight of the Vegan purpose. These Bros are not wrong in their statements, and to me it seems as if they throw a lot of sarcasm and satire into their videos (which is witty and original if you ask me). Stop acting as though being a Vegan makes you better than those who eat meat.. its really almost as disturbing as the animal abuse? Just because a person wants to eat honey for a while until they get accommodated to the Vegan lifestyle does not mean that they don’t deserve to be a Vegan. The point is to stop the abuse, we are allowed to use nature to survive, so let’s not walk on egg shells over every little practicality. Be proud that you are educated and Vegan, but use this knowledge to educate others with compassion. LIKE DAMN PEOPLE.
I’m glad you decided to become vegan. The first thing to learn is that
Vegans don’t USE animals. Good luck and good health to you!🌼
Nope. I don’t change my beliefs to cater to their reception when expressed to an audience. Just don’t eat honey. Don’t bitch to people about whether it’s vegan or not. Most people can’t remember if milk is a vegan menu option.
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fuck you. vegans don’t eat honey, NOR DO THEY CONDONE USING ANIMALS. you are NOT in touch with reality screwballs.. bringing honey into the discussion causes people to continue eating cows, chickens and pigs, etc??? ZERO LOGIC FOR ZERO BRAIN CELLED IDIOTS.
Banging on about honey being vegan is likely to piss people off, I agree. For that reason I don’t do it, but an unexpected thing happened to me when I went vegan: every time I am faced with a choice about whether or not to ingest something that resulted in animal pain and suffering, I SEE the pain and suffering. Honestly, sometimes I feel like John fucking Coffey!! So for me, it’s about personal choices, it’s as simple as that. I choose to avoid anything that resulted in pain and suffering, it’s called compassion. Then every meal is a triumph!
If people are curious about my choices, then I tell them without reference to their own choices (most of the time they aren’t aware they are even making a ‘choice’, because, that’s how the fucked up world is), because pushing people’s buttons, and them getting on the defensive obliterates the golden opportunity you have which just might help them think for themselves. It’s called guided discovery. If it’s done badly, you look like a pain in the arse clever-dick, but if it’s done well, you could well help someone to open their eyes, and to discover their own inherent compassion.
Keep up the good work boys!
First time commenting on your site. The ALL or NOTHING philosophy does more damage than good in promoting a vegan lifestyle. As vegans we have a responsibility in promoting the lifestyle and allow non vegans to see that its OK to live this way.
Bravo! The fact is that vegans eschew honey because a a small group of people decided it wasn’t vegan. Then, ecause people love defining themselves with labels (vegan), a lot of the vegan community just mindlessly nod their heads and equate honey to drinking “insect milk.”
You make a great point by reminding us that a lot of insects are killed when harvesting and growing our vegan food. Ideally, that wouldn’t happen, but even with organic growing techniques, you still have to deal with so-called “pests.” Let’s get real people. We really should be trying to get people to at least eat less meat, not making ourselves look like wackos. And this is coming from a vegan who couldn’t even eat honey before going vegan.
Guys, you can’t change the literal meaning of words to better suit your cause. Unless you’re Christian, of course.
FYI, a Langstroth bee hive is based a scientific formula using the “bee space” measurement as a template. google it. share the knowledge, whether you agree or not.
Well I’m new to veganism and I have to say before I even thought about honey, it seems against what being a vegan stands for. Unless – you are choosing to be a vegan for reasons other than compassion for the exploration of animals and insects (which is most of the reason why I’ve chosen this path).
I think people who may be less concerned about animals and more concerned about health may not understand why substituting say, agave for honey is a better option (for the animal kingdom).
It would be lovely if everyone lived by the path of compassion but sadly this isn’t going to happen.
So what do I think? I think people should make up their own minds and own their decision. My opinion is that honey is not vegan but if I chose to eat it – then that is my choice and I’ll have to live with the possible consequences and maybe guilt too.
So. Unlike milk, honey is a natural by product of bees. And Bees like making honey. Bees are vital to human and animal survival due to pollenation. Eating honey creates a demand for it. It creates a market for people to farm and harvest more bees, to create more honey. If no one ate honey, there would be fewer bees. And at their current rate hives are dying, and without human greed to ensure their survival who knows how long we’d live. So if you really care about animals, and the future of all species, and the flurshing of the bee population…eat the honey.
Benefits of honey:
Can promote small-scale, local, fairtrade, sustainable businesses
Can buy local, no food miles
Promote local pollination of food stuffs and wild plants (and these small businesses may promote/provide wildflower meadows etc that are good for all pollinators such as bumblebees)
Shipped halfway around the world
Industry built on human slavery and exploitation (although you can buy fairtrade)
For me, drawing lines in the sand without taking into consideration the nuances of ethics is silly and frustrating!
Also people are missing the point of this video. Shouting people down for ‘not doing enough’ to protect animals and the environment doesn’t help.
Going from eating meat (or dairy, eggs, etc) twice a day to twice a week is a bigger difference than from twice a week to never. If you really want to see lasting social change encourage people to feel they can make those steps, and applaud them when they do.
Wrong thx bye
the main reason I’m in the process of turning vegan (the reason why I’m not exactly one right now is because I live a my parents house and they’re omnivores) is to reduce my greenprint.
we actually should eat honey (and especially local, small industries’ honey) for our planet’s sake. because of the massive deforestiation and use of insecticides, the world’s bees population has decreased. studies have shown that the whole world needs pollenising insects (such as bees) to keep plants and cultures of all sorts growing. by bying honey, you’re increasing it’s demand and helping new hives to be inplanted and thus increase the bees population.
concuming honey is good for the planet.
I think you guys have a valid point; telling people everything that isn’t vegan isn’t going to help. But that doesn’t mean vegans should compromise their morals and say things ‘are’ vegan when they actually aren’t. An alternative to your proposal is to show non-vegans what is vegan – show them the positives rather than the negatives. That way there is no compromising of morals.
Also I get that bees are used in agriculture etc but for me I feel that I want to do the least damage I possibly can, but each to their own. If it works for some people, then great! Just don’t put off others because it confuses them on what being vegan actually means.
Technically no one is %100 vegan. We build a house, walk outside, ride a bike etc we kill bugs. You need a medication to save your life? Not vegan. If you really want to have hone you can have your own bee hives and only take the overflow honey they won’t use. If you just do the best you can that’s what really matters. 🙂
I like the idea of not alienating people who eat fried chicken legs, if we really want to make a change we need to teach what’s right (not eating chicken legs, or any legs for that matter) without alienating people and hoping we make an impact through education and lifestyle. My whole family of 4 is vegan and we do what we can in our small Berkeley, CA city to help spread the vegan lifestyle to the chicken leg lovers of the world. Being a true vegan means to love all living creatures.
Agreed. Priorities. Honey is a tiny issue in comparison to meat/dairy/eggs, and I’d rather have a honey-consuming vegan than a carnivore any fucking day of the week.
It’s all ’bout those baby steps, props dudes.
I say, treat it like you would an allergy. If you were with friends and one of them ordered something you were allergic to, it’s fine to not mention it. There is a place and time to make a stink, but in the middle of dinner, with friends, is not the place/time. That said; if that person then asks you to “try this”, you can then mention that and why, you don’t consume honey.
I don’t eat it, nor do I eat eggs, or drink milk, but I am not morally opposed to it, either. If someone has a goats and those goats are treated like family and one just happens to be producing more milk than her kid will drink, by all means, use it. The same goes with eggs, provided you have no rooster and your chickens are healthy/happy, eat an egg. So, I feel the same about honey, if your bees are producing far more honey than they can eat, take a little. Where I oppose it, is when it’s commercial and the animals are essentially slaves for humans and are treated inhumanely.
I gotta say, to be different and well informed, some vegans are avoiding high concentrations of pollutants which animals and insects collect…even algae collects high concentrations of chemical waste, which is why it is wise to eat chlorella grown in tanks. AND being nice to animals…but being vegan is also smart like that.
You guys are amazing! I don’t consume honey myself and it’s usually not the first thing people ask when they have questions about what I eat. (That was a long sentence…. oh well. Internet. Yeah.) I totally understand where you guys are coming from. Keep it up!
What about the humans exploited in harvesting fruits and vegetables….? if you are truly vegan, you need to stand with your mouth open and wait for random fruits and vegetables to fall into it. THAT is truly vegan. I wish you luck in your survival strategy.
It can feel frustrating in finding the answers to discovering the foods one needs to eat to be completely healthier and stronger than “meat eaters”.
Don’t give up! It’s out there!
well it would be a huge progress already if at least people where vegetarians, for the planet, animals….
but whining about eating honey?…vegans are crazy I say :’)
It’s a discussion about damaging the Eco system. Vegans are not at all crazy but very special
FUI: Factory dairy farming is worse. :/
Was that a smart watch he’s wearing?? ..Built by sum poor, under aged, kid forced into hard labor in sum illegal overseas sweatshop?? Sumhow, supporting that seems way less vegan than eating honey!! Wake up people!! Simply being ALIVE contradicts Vegan principles.. it’s a completely ridiculous concept!! “Vegans”, if u haven’t killed yourself yet.. you’re causing avoidable harm to other creatures in some form or fashion (be it to insects, bacteria, or other micro organisms) and therefore, are not vegan. You people knowingly feast on bugs, while others choose to eat chicken legs. If you truly view all living creatures as equal, there is no difference here, so stop judging people simply because they choose to eat bigger animals than you do!!
I don’t think it’s a matter of judging..
Accidental bug eating to justify intentionally killing animals , is what you said.
You do feel bad , or maybe you’re a sadist?
The plant life as food is out there!, to be healthier and stronger . It’s a beautiful thing!
Don’t feel judged , just because of the lack of knowledge.
There is no reason or benefit from eating other animals.
Start with looking at vitamins and minerals to build on.
Great video mother fuckers.
Honey yes or not:
Jeez guys, how hard can that be?
-IF you call your self a vegan for moral reasons, then yes, you’re awsome, you’re better than me (I guess) and by such contest, honey is not vegan.
– If you are a sociopath or simply weren’t born a vegan like me, and therefore you lack in sensitiviity and you simply decided to turn vegan after you came across scientific material from Campbell (China Study) or Valdo Vaccaro ( Italian eating Guru) then yup:
HONEY IS VEGAN.
What? Why? :
because it has not animal cells, that’s why!!! so eating that won’t feed your cancers cells.
Stop trying to push on people common sense like their have any, people adapt to the mass ideology? renowed everyday by massmedia, good luck. Psichology doesn’t like exeption I’m afraid.
You wanna make hem think? hit them were they care the most, their own body and their families. You can do all the cheesy riots you want my friends but just in case you wanna convert hem :
1 Let them aknowledge their have been eating poison since their day one and please don’t play “the vegan”.
2 work your ass off and get some cooking skill to show them how good and various we eat; how good we feel, and how finally we get to taste the true flavours of food (and look at their disgusted faces when they taste meat or fish after months with their new palate).
3 stop hiding behind your good will as excuse for not taking care of yourself: Look at you. You are stressed, skinny and weak. Is this what you want not-vegan to think of ya? You wanna save the cows? you need to convert people showing them you understand, not to repulse them boasting on how superior (therefore far away) you are.
To convert them you need to start from your ass. From now on you’ll have to be in great shape. Eating a balanced variety of the seven main types of veggies and doing some basic daily exercise. This is what a clever vegan do. Not playing donquishotte.
” But while we’re talking they beast suffer!!”. Well, I know, the society is 120% fucked up, so what?this is the shortest cut and it doesn’t involve any moral compromise. It’s actually about putting values on what you do!
So focus on the results and less on the means, you might actually enjoy the ride, change a lot of mind that won’t touch meat again and .who knows, even help us out to get google image rid of deserved vegans jokes meme.
Ya know…I wish there were totally acceptable and supported levels of veganism instead of more arguing the different sides and breeding more negativity 😔 I’ve been a vegitarian over 10 years and recently went vegan due to some horrible reality I allowed myself to be blind to. Since then I’ve been searching for a cool discussion group where everyone is curious and willing to share knowledge in a way that isn’t rude and insulting to the other person.
I eat honey and keep bees…
I think loving and becoming one with a horse is a beautiful thing…nothing uve ever done but one day I fully intend to add a horse to my family
I will be getting some chickens soon (as pets, they will spend their unproductive 15years retiring with me) and I intend to eat their eggs. I’m aware of bee vomit and chicken periods and that doesn’t gross me out…I will be around meat and not be grossed out…yet at the same time when see road kill I feel my heart twist at the sadness of people just driving by and not caring one but about that little soul that was just there…
for me it’s more of a head trip to look at everyone else and see the total disconnect between the infinite suffering that goes into animal foods and products…if people are so desensitized to human suffering…all the violence against each other…it is no surprise people don’t see the perfection and innocence of nature…i hear the jokes directed at me 😊 but you know what, my chill and knowledge bent attitude is more inviting than defensiveness and judgment…
From what you said of yourself, you are a very nice person who eats a mostly plant based diet.
But, vegans don’t USE animals.
The problem with that logic is then that milk would be vegan, cheese would be vegan, butter would vegan, and then where does it end. I understand your concern, but it is serilously misplaced. Also, do you know how honey is actually made by the bees? They consume nectar and as it goes through their “digestive” system, the excess is turned into honey and excreted. That is an animal product by any definition of the word. I would suggest that the two of you change your handle to Vegetarian Bros. and then problem solved.
In that case let’s all start drinking milk, eating cheese and go vegetarian instead, we’ll “convert” more omnivores and save more pigs.
If you’re ok with being smoked out of your home and having your food stores raided then enjoy your honey and go vegetarian.
Donald Watson who coined the word ‘vegan’ in 1944 explicitly stated that honey is NOT vegan. So why the hell are people arguing if it is vegan or not?
The following is an excerpt from the article WHY HONEY IS NOT VEGAN AND HAS NEVER BEEN VEGAN by the facebook page THE BLOODY DAIRY INDUSTRY.
On August 11, 2004, during an interview with an organization called “Vegetarians in Paradise,” Watson (94 years old at the time) mentioned that he and his vegan friends debated FOR A LONG TIME and MORE THAN ONCE whether or not honey is vegan. He said,
“I know as a propagandist that many people do not argue to reach right conclusions but to defend their interests and religious shibboleths. We did not need a committee of such people. Of course, we did not always agree on everything. We argued for a long time about whether members should sign a pledge before deciding against it. We also debated FOR A LONG TIME about the case of honey but AGAIN decided AGAINST it.”
Watson’s respect for animals of any size did not stop at bees. He also used a fork rather than a spade in his gardening to avoid killing worms and said silk, which comes from the bodies of silkworms just as honey comes from the bodies of bees, is NOT vegan, either.
So if you consume honey or use products that contain honey or its derivatives such as beeswax, royal jelly, you’re simply NOT vegan. This is a FACT that is not open to debate or discussion.
Your argument also supports eating mice/gophers/foxes/rabbits.
The cashier at Trader Joe’s asked me why honey wasn’t vegan. I told him because the global bee population is in decline and when honey is removed for industry, bees are given sugar water in its place. I said, that this was detrimental to the bee colonies, and that we really didn’t really need or benefit from it, whereas bees actually thrive on it. I also mentioned that as humans we do thrive on plant foods, such as the ones pollinated by bees and other pollinators and that it made sense to give up honey, rather than the dozens upon dozens of plant foods we would potentially be losing if the bees were gone.
What you said is true, except that is not wjat veganism is. That is animal welfare. Vegans don’t use animals. Not only we try not to hurt animals, we don’t use them.
Bros, it’s not just the honey thing that makes Vegans sound crazy.
some of the things used to fertilize the soil is definately non vegan
wait! we need bees to pollinate most all of our plants
But, we DON’T need to steal their honey!
Can you answer a question. … Is it stealing, when people use steer, or any other animal droppings for fertilizer? Should we pay the cows for their feces? Is honey from bees the same thing? I heard honey is bee crap and bee vomit, I could be wrong though. Can you please correct me if I am wrong? I appreciate your concern on the bee’s. Essentially nothing can grow if there is no life force involved.
think bees are one of or the most essential animal to keep our eco system alive
Here’s my opinion on it. I eat honey and I DO consider myself Vegan. I’m vegan for animal rights, environmental and health reasons. First off although I agree there is minimal adverse effects to bees from bee farming the benefits at this point in time in comparison far out weight them. With the mass drops in bee populations throughout the world with the absence of bee farms the loss of bee populations would be absolutely devastating. I’m talking catastrophic extinction level devastation not just too the bees but to humans and basically almost every land dwelling animal on the planet and several plants. Furthermore healthwise honey is one of the healthiest sweeteners and a far far better choice as a topical medical and beauty treatment than most products on the market both for you and the environment. Supporting bee farms is humane because of current CIRCUMSTANCES. Blindly refusing to eat honey because it comes from an animal as a vegan is counterproductive. Whenever a vegan gets mad at someone for consuming honey, I tell them if you really want to make a difference direct your anger at Monsanto not a person who’s wants a reasonable sweet treat.
Ok. I love this video because people need to hear the logic! Great politicians, revolutionaries and thinkers who have effected change on a massive scale have done it by bridging the gap between the extremes in ideology. The extremes here are “zero animal products up to and including honey”, as compared to “I eat animals at EVERY meal, and the idea of not doing so is unnatural and disgusting. This is how we are, we eat animals!”. Two very extreme ideologies. In order to move forward together, we need what is called a CRITICAL MASS EFFORT. When a critical mass of people collectively do something for the common good, it tips the scales towards positive change.
Realize, people, that in most of our DNA it is coded that we eat animals. Thousands of years we have eaten them, and I’m sorry, but you cannot easily change most peoples’ hearts and minds when their biology is screaming at them that “you must survive…kill to survive, eat flesh!” It is crazy to think that you can change that primal desire overnight, and it is counterproductive to spend time angry at those who won’t and or can’t go without meat during this lifetime. IT’S GOING TO BE OK. I personally ate burgers 2 months ago, even though I felt it was wrong (I’ve been vegetarian, vegan, and pescetarian trying to combat this meat addiction multiple times usually for a period of months). I am very proud and happy with my progress going back to a vegetarian (yes vegetarian, not completely vegan) diet. And you should be proud of me too! And proud and happy for anyone trying to adhere to a compassionate diet…because this is PROGRESS. Progress that can get us to the critical mass we need to overturn climate change and improve all life on the planet. We must be patient, grateful, and humble in these times. The more love and support you show for people who are even taking two or three days out of the week to eat vegetarian, the more encouraged they will be. And if you want to be an actually effective leader, then you must understand those you are trying to lead…and I’m sorry, but most people are not ready for veganism. Not even close. Love and support those who are making an effort, and let go of the negative emotions you have for those who aren’t…its not worth it! I recommend the book “Meat Hooked” by Marta Zaraska, where she explores our obsession with meat eating. Be blessed and bridge that gap, people!
i’m vegan for my health not for the fucking animals, honey is better for me than refined sugars,so i eat it. it contains no animal protein therefore its vegan………..END OF REPORT!!!!!!
You are eating plant based diet. You are not a vegan. Not eating pork does not make one a Jew, right?
I dont see u guys complaining about the houses u live in or ur friends and family for all the wild life that was destroyed and killed to make those homes, the clothes u wear, ur products that u use…vegans and most ppl r just a bunch of hypocrits… Its ok here but, not there…ur using a device that records and do u have ne idea what takes place for the materials to make that device or over time what we’ve done to the environment to evolve our devices to create that one u use….plz tell me again how u care so, much and how ur better than ne one else…
So, because we cannot end all harm, should we not even try to avoid deliberate harm?
agree you guys are awesome…
All animal products contain cholesterol, but honey doesn’t. What does that mean?
That you were wrong about all animal products containing cholesterol? 😉
This is absolutely ridiculous. The population of bees is plummeting, and they are essential for plant growth. The best way to keep their species thriving is to make it economically feasible for people to grow and house bees, which cross pollinate a large swath of the region around them. How better to do this than harvest their all natural honey for monetary gain? This is one of the best mutualistic relationships in nature: Humans profit from the bees’ honey, they get to enjoy the delicious honey, the plant life profits from the bees pollination, and the bees profit by having a sanctuary that’s highly conducive to their decimated species’ reproduction. Are you seriously worried about hurting the bees feelings for taking the honey they worked so hard for? That’s literally the definition of delusional. Veganism has gone off the deep end. Pragmatism over principles people.
Treat all living things with kindness. They are not treated kindly, We are steeling the bees food for winter therefore bees are dying, bees are an endangered species and do so much for the environment. Personally I don’t believe we should be eating honey, vegan, vegetarian or none vegan/vegetarian but that is my personal opinion
The amount of different sweeteners available to the general public is insane and the only reason we see honey is that people who make it be it corporate or small based home business they can charge a lot for it and people still buy it the whole supply and demand is huge nothing on the market can give the unique flavor of bee vomit strange but that is what your consuming. Sadly it is also in a lot of processed foods making finding vegan alternatives even harder which sucks. Do not get me wrong before becoming vegan and also being a chef honey is awesome and very versatile however realizing the reality of taking an animals food source is just wrong when we have alternatives. We as society just need to stop fueling the animal exploitation of this world use products that do not harm any animals agave, stevia, raw sugar, sugar cane, Splenda, etc.
Don’t forget maple syrup!🍯 Hmmmmm.
Can we get back to the original point.
Collecting honey does not harm bees, if ONLY the surplus is collected. If the surplus was not collected it can cause swarming [over population] in the hive.
A good, responsible bee keeper, will always leave enough honey in the hive, for the bees’ requirements, otherwise they would die, over the Winter.
Bees produce honey as food stores for the hive during the long months
of winter when flowers aren’t blooming and therefore little or no
nectar is available to them. European honey bees, genus Apis
Mellifera, produce such an abundance of honey, far more than the hive
can eat, that humans can harvest the excess.
However did bees exist before humans began stealing their honey? If I steal just SOME of your money would that be OK?
If you want to say you’re honest, you don’t steal.
If you want to say you’re vegan, you don’t USE animals.
Its about intention. If I intentionally buy or harvest honey – its cruel. If I am doing my best to be a conscious compassionate eater and eat vegan (even though there may be bugs, insects etc killed in the processing of plants) my intention is not to harm these bugs, its to NOT support “animal farms” whether it be cows, bees pigs etc.
err you 2 are stupid, honey is not bee vomit “The bees collects the nectar from flowers (a plant) using its long proboscis and store it in its special stomach or honey stomach separate from its true stomach for digestion. when he uses the honey he basically just spits it out so to speak it is just honey not vomit no spit and bees are not killed in the process intentionally tho sometimes bees can be killed accidentally but then again we can step on a bee and kill it unintentionally. and as for eggs and dairy the not all dairy farms and egg farms kill there animals when they don’t produce to there liking and so this is just a bs reason not to eat eggs and dairy and honey and for that matter i don’t know how people can justify eating vegan to save an animals life but are okay with killing plants which are living things as well.
Sadly, you have just made a bunch of false statements based on ignorance of animal agriculture. Watch the videos Cowspiracy, and Earthlings.
Do people really think insects have feelings? Theyre like tiny robots.
Scientific studies show that insects do feel pain and are aware of themselves. Even hive creatures are not automatons.
Putting aside ethical reasons other people give to why honey IS NOT vegan, it is also NOT vegan by definition. Bees swallow the flower pollen and then sort of puke it back. By definition THIS IS AN ANIMAL PRODUCT BECAUSE THE BEES FORM IT INSIDE THEM AND THE FINAL PRODUCT CONTAINS BEE SECRETION WHICH IS A PRODUCT DERIVED DIRECTLY FROM ANIMALS. Stop trying to make videos and posts with wrong information because you wrongly inform the ignorant, of this matter, people!
What about crops that use commercial bees for pollination? Should one avoid them, is it possible?
Ignoring honey doesn’t change it’s vegan status. Something is either vegan or not. Redefining vegan – that changes everything. Extreme definitions would have you die of malnutrition since virtually everything in the world is at least influenced by the work of microbes, insects, or higher animals. Less stringent definitions allow for using ‘symbiotic’ over ‘exploitation’. And so the scale slides. Let them eat honey! The bees might not like it, but the chickens will benefit from having a new vegan giving up eggs! Let them eat cake! How many insects and animals were displaced and died in the production of wheat and sugar? (Let’s not talk about bone char used in cane sugar production.)
Bottom line is, likely NOBODY is vegan by some definitions, so perhaps we should allow for “Vegan-aware” as a classification of lifestyle and diet choice. “I know the source and effects of what I’m eating, and I choose more good than harm, and that’s better than nothing.”
Problem is, Vegan already has several definitions (dietary and many brands of ethical), and within those broader definitions, individual vegans have different interpretations. For example, I know two vegans who happily swallow. Well, know for certain. Which would seem to contradict the broadest dietary definition, but be fine with most ethical standpoints. Yet most (if not pretty much all) vegans wouldn’t countenance vivisection, despite it being a non-dietary issue. You see my point?
Try Watson’s definition of veganism. He coined the term.
And thus the first of several homonyms. I’d even wager that the dietary definition is more frequent in common parlance, and more widely known in general. That said, I do see how it can become irksome. I’ve heard people say they were vegetarian then order fish. In the UK this is depressingly common. Because fish = vegetables, obviously… #palmface
Anyway, I digress. To a typical vegan, a vegan is someone who is ethically opposed to the use of animals, in whole or in part, as commodities. But that doesn’t escape the fact that vegan is also used near universally, and acknowledged by most English dictionaries as such, to mean someone who follows a vegan diet.
It may be seen as a corruption, but that’s just how language evolves. For example, we use coke as a generic term for what the Coke Cola company would rather you termed cola. But no one has ever asked for a Whisky and Cola except as a bet. While if you asked Tony Montana for whisky and coke, you’d get the first in a glass and the second on a mirror.
We can avoid all DELIBERATE use of animals.
so If vegans dont eat honey bc of bee labor, why eat vegetables from fields ployed by animals?
Deliberate exploitation vs. accidental harm.
Is there a difference between my accidentally stepping on your toe, and deliberately kicking you in the shin? Of course! The first was an accident! Jees!!!
I believe we should stand all the way with our beliefs, half way through seem conflicted an dishonest to me.
So, since insects are killed for my bananas, then it’s okay to kill bees for honey, that was the first part of your argument. Second, don’t tell non-vegans that honey isn’t vegan because it will scare them away. Either way: Honey isn’t vegan.
I agree. I’ve been a strict vegan since 1992, but I eat local honey, harvested by people I know personally who respect and love their bees. I am actually thinking about taking up bee keeping myself, so I can even further assure that the honey I eat, which has AMAZING medicinal properties, is humanely harvested, and no bees were harmed. Honey CAN be vegan-friendly…leather, fried chicken, steak, pork chops, gelatin, animal milk, and all other forms of cruel animal exploitation and murder are NOT.
Vegans don’t USE animals.
you are trying to change the definition of “vegan”. Not going to fly, no matter what you think. Honey is not vegan.
Honey is a substance produced by bees, also known as ‘bee vomit’. It is an animal product.
This is a very simple fact (backed up by science), and because of that, it is not vegan.
As a vegan, I do understand that some animals unfortunately get killed in the production and transportation of plant based foods… however, that is because humanity stupidly uses outdated methods of food cultivation (agriculture), as opposed to localized fully automated vertical farms that implement hydroponics and airponics (all of which was doable since the 1970 ies) which wouldn’t depend on external weather conditions or bees at all… and, the amount of land animals that die because they are intentionally bred for industrial use and eventual consumption is far higher… close to 70 billion annually, rising to approximately a trillion animals killed annually when you take into account marine animals that are caught for eventual industrial use and consumption as well.
The point of being vegan is to reduce overall animal exploitation and suffering as much as you can from within the current system – obviously some trade-offs will exist, but this is not because people are hypocritical… it is because we live in a system that is based on exploitation and use of animals.
The environmental and health benefits of going vegan (both backed up by clinical trials which also confirmed some time ago that the humans are herbivores) are a bonus.
I don’t understand why someone would feel being deprived of honey is such a big deal and that alone would prevent them from taking the ethical cause of veganism seriously. A bee is small so that makes it a less significant bee-ing ? (Sorry, couldn’t resist.) But what about a whole colony of creatures, these bees ? Someone long ago, lost to history, discovered one day that honey is tasty. So what ? If you can learn to eat something, you can learn to un-eat something. Every day people are discovering new ways to combine ingredients, foods into new taste sensations. Nobody should claim they’re going to “die” from lack of ANYTHING. There’s no shortage of food choices around, the whole deprivation thing is ridiculous. If you’re literally starving to death like emaciated children in Africa, then yeah, you are TRULY deprived. Because you have limited or no access to food so that your body wastes away, you get sick and you actually die. But if you can go shopping at any of a myriad of stores that surround you and eat any single time you are hungry, and eat as much as you want, you don’t know what deprivation is. So I acknowledge that honey not being vegan isn’t the best avenue into teaching someone about veganism. That’s only because of the warped perspective people have and the utterly egotistically indulgent way people approach food, cooking, dining, these days. Experimentation and gluttony are considered the highest ideals, so much so now that people have even taken to eating creatures while they are still alive on the plate. But neither can the issue of bees and THEIR honey be hidden away like it’s an annoying little detail that could lose vegans a sale into the community. If you learn empathy for ALL species, that includes bees and insects too, in pursuit of minimizing harm and exploitation. Teach people compassion and empathy for mammals first works better but they need to come around and give the same consideration for insects as well.